NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #14

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although once it was in to the second week it was looking like this would not happen. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently, as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13

J: Did you know of any?

DU: Not particularly - assumed NHS Scotland policies etc

J: When you left, did you have outerwear - jacket or something?

DU: I assume so, but can't say for certain

was in a meeting, not clear who is questioning DU now - is it the judge?

He wanted her to be corrected.

the panel inc judge

J: This note - I think you said written on the spot, in the car immediately. What time?

DU: 12.30-1?

J and how long to drive home

DU: usually c 50 minutes

J: This email is dated 3.17 am, how long did it take you to prepare?

DU: Don't know

J: Can you recall process of composing?

DU: Think I would have typed out in word or an email, referring to the phone notes to help my recollection

My feeling would be that treating Upton with seeming kindness makes Upton feel safe to talk.

And we want him to talk.

It was Christmas eve, middle of winter, he'd have been wearing a coat!

J: You say SP 'often' leaves the CR, what do you mean by 'often'?

DU: I meant the two previous times

J: You were not on rota then till 28/12

DU: Yes

“I'm not male. Just bcs a belief is protected, doesn't make it true.”

Indeed, Dr Upton, indeed. Your beliefs have been protected, positively coddled and cossetted, and yet they are still not true,

I am irrestibly reminded of Kirrin Metcalf at Allison Bailley's tribunal. Metcalf insisted on explaining exactly why Allison Bailey (a polite professional middle aged black woman) presented a threat to any trans person entering the building... and cooked Garden Court Chambers' goose. Also helped many organisations realise why they shouldn't follow advice from Stonewall.

I think the judge is wondering about DU's credibility generally. My take on it is the judge wants to know if there is any way of corroborating DU's very precise account of what he was wearing and when.

Thread to discuss this important court win here.

Kirsty Higgs wins belief discrimination case www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/5272986-kirsty-higgs-wins-belief-discrimination-case

thanks, but why are panel questioning? Just seeking clarifications? IANAL

J: You say SP 'often' leaves the CR, what do you mean by 'often'?

DU: I meant the two previous times

J: You were not on rota then till 28/12

DU: Yes

SP said it was a short black coat
That DU had put it on before leaving the CR

J: Your email to BMA p 739 to AW. 27/12 13:09 [I think] you say "thank you" re a discussion, so there was a disccussion between the boxing day email and this one. Do you recall that?

DU: It says 'as we discussed' so prob means a phone call but I can't recall.

@Ereshkigalangcleg Thanks. Have put the link there too now.

The purpose of this is mainly to clarify points that they are not clear on from the original questioning and cross examination.

J: You can't recall the conversation?

DU: I think it was a short thing, just about referring me to correct point of contact for Scotland

Evasive answers!!!

J: [another email] did you reply to this?

DU: Yes I think I sent emails btwn me and KS, I think another email chain, and the Datix policy, and I think the 'hate incident' doc - I think all in bundle

Can't recall if it's a phone call, but I can safely say what we discussed

sorry, Dime, that wasn't specifically to you

Clear DU has been following to a certain extent even if it's against the rules as he made reference to recent SM/tweets about him

I always thought that "case-by-case" was for the situation not the individual. (although often misinterpreted due to poor drafting of the EA).

e.g. A women's rape survivors group. This is an excellent case for a female only service, with no males allowed in (however they identify).
Not, we'll let one transwoman in to this group, but not hypothetical Pete who also identifies as as a women. The case for this group is that all males, assigned male at birth, transwomen, male non-binary (etc.) are not permitted.

So in this case the NHS should have decided on the case for the female changing rooms. Are men (however they identify) permitted in or not? Rather than saying it's ok for one male who says they are a transwoman but would deny a different male who says they are transwoman.

J: [page] 3/1 you send 'hate incident' message rather than the doc you had Mr Ronald's comments on. Can I clarify, did you take out the bits Mr R had recommended taking out, or different way of editing?

DU: Think I copied relevant bits from R edit.