NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #14

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although once it was in to the second week it was looking like this would not happen. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently, as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13

Bugger I clicked the wrong gif!

J: So if necessary we could ask a couple of people what you were wearing at various point?

DU Yes

J: How long on 24/12 between you going in, and going to the toilet?

DU: About 5 minutes?

J: And they were also changing into civilian clothes?

DU I imagine so but not looking

Welcome to Wonderland, Alice.

J: And F still there when you came out?

DU: Yes

J: [page ref] your iv with AG: you say you can't remember which order people left, but that one left before you went in and the other while you were in the toilet? Did you say goodbye or anything

DU Maybe

Are these judge questions not (another) indication of how sympathetic he feels to DU? If he was going to go down the 'not your changing room you shouldn't have been there' line he wouldn't need to seek corroboration about what he was wearing at any given point, would he?

Seen Malaga mentioned a few times but don't get it. What am I missing?

[I must have got either the Q or the yes wrong in the first question in previous tweet as it looks as if DU immediately contradicted self]

👆This, in a nutshell.

AGP is the code

@VimesandhisCardboardBoots look up the airport code for Malaga

Málaga airport code = AGP = autogynephilia

J: This response looks odd?

DU: Agree - can't explain that

JR: Q5 says this?

J: But this is answer to Q6

DU: yes can't explain.

I don't think so. The judge can't be seen to be taking sides at all at this point, it'd leave things open for appeal. He's just trying to make sure as much evidence is covered as possible.

I think the judge is entirely taken in by him and unlike us, is quite likely to interpret NC as big meany deflecting blame rather than incisive uncoverer of DU slithery bollocks.

I just don't get the judges angle here.

It’s not his case its his defence

J: You say here, can I refer to notes. What are you meaning?

DU: My phone notes.

J: Did you show AG your notes or just read them?

DU: I think, just read out

I get it now. Thanks everyone for explaining!

He doesn't seem to be questioning the chronological order of things, which was a pivotal part of Naomi's cross examination

How much money is Fife NHS wasting on this? The NHS claims it is dire straits and that there isn’t enough funding but it’s okay to pull out all the stops for a tribunal. I really hope that a number of people are going to get absolutely bollocked for proceedings to get to this stage.

The judge has to be neutral. He's not showing bias here he's being neutral.

J: P263 You say SP told you women have right to feel safe, then in quotes 'it's like that [missed] in prisons' - is that a direct quote

DU: Yes I think verbatim

J: You talk of proper channels. Did you know what those were at that time?

DU: No but assumed nurses wd have policies

that's hopeful I suppose

Not 100% relevant but to do with expressing beliefs about GI in the workplace.

Christian school worker wins six-year battle over expressing beliefs

www.thetimes.com/article/860b4d5f-5ec7-4a3e-be4e-fe696a115f5d?shareToken=3a16fd04e6c93a94fa44d949e9d4a65b

No - there events are disputed - DU and SP say slightly different things. And it changes the context of the exchange. So the panel have to work out how to get more clarity - sounds like they will ask other staff. Given that the panel will reconvene they might be able to add to the list of witnesses - or maybe the SP can. I don't know what the rules are about this - but all the late/non disclosures maybe allow further requests? One of the legal peeps might be able to advise