NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #14

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although once it was in to the second week it was looking like this would not happen. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently, as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13

It is easier to remember when things happen about big festivals because there are gatherings and parties etc. The judge is good here - asking for facts and seeing how certain the answers are.

Interesting that DU responses to J are concise.

"I always thought that "case-by-case" was for the situation not the individual. (although often misinterpreted due to poor drafting of the EA)."

It does. (And it is)

Yes it will pick up inconsistencies in evidence. I also think , although it's hard to tell from TT, that DU is responding in a different way to a man to how he did to NC.

J: So 'hate incident' is a subset of 'formal complaint'

DU: yes, probably the odd edit to make flow properly but yes

J: What is your definition of 'ciswoman'

DU: someone born female who is comfortable with gender identity 'woman'

J: What is the difference btwn 'cis woman' and NC use 'literal woman'?

DU: I hadn't come across the 'literal woman' term till now

J: do you think they mean the same group of people

DU: Yes that's what I think

someone born female

I thought that was a nebulous dog whistle?

Please ask what is a woman

What a fucking liar not come across bullshit.

DU: someone born female who is comfortable with gender identity 'woman'

But what's 'female' if sex isn't real but a 'nebulous dogwhistle'?

He's agreed it was a formal complaint here, something he denied when giving evidence in XX.

He's hanging himself when it comes to consistency.

Has he just used the descriptor "born female"? Earlier he claimed that sex was assigned by a doctor after birth.

Not when a Man asks though.

Cheeky, disingenuous, thoroughly reprehensible man. Talk about gaslighting.

Quite different in tone to the answers SP gave when the judge asked her questions about what/when/where. She was certain and specific

Hopefully NC will draw that together in her submissions.

good spot.

J: When did you first see [page ref]

DU: I think, as part of the bundle

J: It's dated 3/1, we have heard that first bundle was 20/12, can you place in relation to that?

DU: I think maybe 2 weeks before the 3/1 hearing

DU: But if bundle sent after 15th I didn't see it until then. Advised not to -

J please don't tell us your legal advice!

DU: Sorry. So, I skimmed the bundle paying most attention to bits I thought I'd be asked about

J: So 'hate incident' is a subset of 'formal complaint'
DU: yes, probably the odd edit to make flow properly but yes

JR: I have just a few points to cover

JR: at start of cross-ex and throughout you were asked Qs whether you aware that other ppl than C unhappy with you using CR. Did anyone other than C make you aware

DU: No nobody raised concerns or said unhappy

JRL P653, this is the layout plan. And see p659 shows toilets and sinks, this one shows lockers and door. You gave evidence you walked past C to get your bag, What stage of the conversation was this.

What about the other woman who was waiting in the corridor along with SP?

This infuriates me. So astoundingly self righteous. Upton assumes that SP knows the "correct" terminology, and if she doesn't she should, and if she does she has to use his approved language.

This is really pointing out the coercive control we're experiencing within our own family. It may not be entirely deliberate; it's indoctrinated into trans people and trans allies and assumed by them to be moral and righteous and something everyone should agree with.

I know Harriet Feldman in real life. She's been plugging the fundraiser on her FB, so it is from her. She's very sweet, very genuine, and quite naive. Whilst I question her wisdom in setting this up it will have been from the best of intentions and I have every confidence it will be going to the right place.