NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #13

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although at the start of the second week getting everything done in this time period was looking less certain. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the liverstreaming, apparently as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but I wouldn't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12

I'm SORRY! Please don't send me to a re-education camp!

When I posted a JPEG on another thread it was quarantined for a while (and I had a message on the post to explain what was happening).

If Pete is dead, and I think NC gets to decide whether he lives or dies, we could have a Mumsnet wake. I am not sure that I can cope with a Zombie Pete.

I know she can't but I'd almost like NC to ask DrU whether he and his wife are planning on having children and if so, which of them is going to gestate said child and whether they will be using a sperm donor seeing as both are 'biologically' female. Mind you, as he mentioned under questioning, it is not actually scientifically known how children are created so maybe they will rely on a stork to deliver a child or find one in the gooseberry patch?

There is a silver lining to every cloud!

Bingo! Maybe as many of us as possible should request male doctors. Because we would get a) Trans male who’d have retained female traits re crime or b) an actual male.

pretty quick our sisters would get the message

Just when you think that things can't get any madder, "a group of doctor mums" (not sure if that means mums who are doctors or mums of doctors) has set up a crowdfunder named "Love and treats for Dr Beth Upton".

gender and sex have historically been used interchangeably but the current conflation is not helping create clarity

That is a reason to stop using gender to mean sex. It isn't a reason to enshrinenit in law as meaning anything else.

A concession to get sex clarified as recorded at birth, biological or natal sex etc.

Why is a concesion needed? Sex means sex. It is a biological reality.

(people cleverer than me can define the definition)

Not in a way any 2 genderists will agree with.

gender identity should be a belief under Religion or Belief pc but in the current climate I think we need a clear definition and that it is acceptable to not have a gender identity.

Why? Do we need a law saying its acceptable not to believe the earth is flat, or to define and say you don't have to have a soul? It's not for the law to define every belief individually and specify that you aren't compelled to hold it.

It would also allow other elements to be set out such as a definition of non-binary, pronouns being limited to she/her, he/him, they/them and not the squillion variations, what transphobia is and is not etc.

Again, why?

It would help employers, service providers, schools etc. by providing clarity on when sex matters and the boundaries they can put in place to respect people who do (and don’t) have a gender identity e.g. third spaces, how to navigate sex based rights vs gender identity based rights, data collection etc.

This can all be done under current regulations about sex (or if necessary, belief; or gender reassignment if you really must but theres virtually nothing not.covered by the forst 2). No additional protected characteristic of identity is needed.

@Peregrina Religion or Belief includes things like veganism etc. and with new EAT judgements the list of beliefs gets expanded.

Technically I think it is Gender Identity Theory I.e. a social construct that some academics have developed theories on. It is nebulous with many definitions and factions so hard to define.

I understand your doubts but we need a way out of the current mess.

So they are mothers or they identify as mothers? How do they know they are mothers? And not fathers?

Oh look at mum's face!
And

PUPPIES 😍

I have to say I don't think there will be a smoking gun in the stuff withheld by Dr U. He is a true believer. He thinks he has behaved unimpeachably, and I don't think it has actually occurred to him that others may think differently about his actions, so I am inclined to think he would not try and bury relevant material intentionally. That fucker has an explanation for EVERYTHING.

The stuff from the Trust side, I can see why they might try and bury stuff if they have messed up procedurally.

Well, yes there are unfortunate people who have already had their healthy bodies altered by cross-sex hormones and they should not be discriminated against but if gender laws were repealed then they could still be protected by sex discrimination law if they were being treated unfairly compared to other members of their sex. Doctors must stop prescribing cross-sex hormones and sex hormone blockers to healthy people and performing surgeries in order to change the appearance of their bodies because of a self-declared 'gender identity'. And that it was ever done in the first place is scandalous. It all needs to stop rather than tinker around with the law to accommodate it.

Also, been refraining from commenting on his appearance, but now we have been kicked out, m'eh. Does it appear to anyone else that he now magically looks quite like his wife. Especially in the nose department.

The begging bowl for 'treats' for Upton is now up to about 700. He should get his moustache zapped.

It will be because people have been donating to a memorial fund to show support for Sandie.

They will use it to demonstrate how much support the doctor has.

Frankly I think it's pathetic.

I don't think that anyone can sensibly now argue that gender reassignment is limited to undergoing some form of physical transition

I'm not arguing that in any sense, just that I don't think the JLR decision means "non binary" is included in the EA in and of itself, and I think it's misinformation to claim it is a matter of settled law, like TRAs do.

The Equality Act is incredibly poorly defined which is resulting in case law like this one being determined in the way it is.

It is the job of politicians, as much as the courts, to protect women from the harms that it is now demonstrably causing

No argument there, definitely.

Pete had done well to survive being mis-identified as a stripping plumber, the incorrect pronouns must have been the fifth banana 🍌 final straw.

Got it! Thanks @WearyAuldWumman

The best way to seek safety under the law as it stands - in the medical sphere - will be to ask for a Trans Man Doctor to attend you.

Failing that an actual man.

If assaulted then criminal law can deal with that.

Being allocated a “woman” is now more risky.

If we all ask for a trans man or man every time we attend a medical appointment, our female doctors might start fighting harder to reclaim their turf?

He is a true believer. He thinks he has behaved unimpeachably, and I don't think it has actually occurred to him that others may think differently about his actions

I'm not sure I agree. Some of the things he said were calculated to wind people up. He's extremely manipulative. I think there is possibly a psychological basis for this.

It’s interesting that people have shown support to S Peggie by donating to a charity in memory of her father (also acknowledging that it’s been a shit time for her family). And Dr Uptons supporters are donating to … Dr Upton personally.

Narcissism by proxy?

@NoBinturongsHereMate I do not want to derail this thread.

I have stated my view on one way we can get sex clarified as natal sex, etc. I am realistic that we need a compromise to achieve this. I know not everyone agrees and that is fine.

Dr Upton is a true believer - at present.

I can't help wondering how many e.g. of these Americans who insist that they belong in women's sport will, now that Trump has acted against it, decide that going round dressed as a Laydee and looking mighty stupid will just go back to being ordinary Joes.

Thanks - can you post an image of the site please? I’ll use that when I ask for a trans male doctors might start at the GPs

Id rather have a candour than run the risk of a “doctor mum”. In the words of DU “very sad”

https://www.livescience.com/archaeology/in-a-1st-ancient-proteins-reveal-sex-of-human-relative-from-3-5-million-years-ago?fbclid=IwY2xjawIYbpZleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHVgtxeQFWptzxv-HxwxoHS_Dtgn2lCSuWql8UZ7WTM5Wo2v8aFYozT7Gfw_aem_a8hdSD6ynpsvT0dbxremWQ just popping this here for info. A 5 min read.

I think trans women get funding for laser hair removal.

Not so for detrans transmen or hairy women such as myself!