NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #13

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although at the start of the second week getting everything done in this time period was looking less certain. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the liverstreaming, apparently as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but I wouldn't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12

I wanted NC to ask him that given that he said he would turn up to see a patient who had requested a female doctor but would leave and find a female doctor if she rejected care from a transwoman, how he would know who to ask given that there is no difference/biology is nebulous and terribly complicated.

Possibly. But I'm thinking of eg detransitioners post mastectomy - not mentally ill, don't believe gender woo, aren't any more disabled than other women who've had non-elective surgery, etc, but might be treated worse than both men and women... If the EA is a shield, not a sword, I think it should be possible to keep GR as a characteristic without it compromising women's rights or freedom of belief.

That said I am thinking this through as I type so not wedded to this position... 😁

But that means nailing down what they mean by gender, and I don't think that's possible.

It's not hair b/c both sexes can have any haircut and fashions change. It's not clothes.
It's not hobbies/interests.

Wtf is it?

I'm not playing into anyones hands just saying that this case can be referenced albeit that it is not binding as such. I don't think that anyone can sensibly now argue that gender reassignment is limited to undergoing some form of physical transition, it's not a requirement for a GRC so it's not going to be a requirement for the Eq A either.

The Equality Act is incredibly poorly defined which is resulting in case law like this one being determined in the way it is.

It is the job of politicians, as much as the courts, to protect women from the harms that it is now demonstrably causing.

Shame on Labour for saying that there is no need for any changes to this piece of legislation.

I presume others have had this email from Edinburgh courts:
Dear Sir/Madam,
Mrs S Peggie v Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton
Case number: 4104864/2024
INFORMATION ON REMOTE ACCESS
An employment tribunal case of Sandie Peggie vs. Fife Health Board and another is currently on-going at Dundee Tribunal Hearing Centre before Employment Judge Kemp and members. An observation room is available in the Tribunal building with limited capacity.
Remote access to the Final Hearing had earlier been provided, but has caused substantial technical difficulties and is now capable of only being made available for accredited media, and to Tribunal Tweets who have been granted permission to send live text based communications. Applications for access can be made by email to [email protected] and will be considered if presented alongside valid journalist ID.
The link will be distributed tomorrow morning (12 Feb)

So we mere mortals don't get to see it happening any more. That's a shame. I can't help feeling they could see the way certain witnesses were coming across, and are now keen to avoid Dr Searle from being shown up when questioned about DU's testimony.

Edited by MNHQ

So much for openness and transparency.

I don't think the Tribunal are trying to protect the respondents, tbh - God knows there's been a lot of open access to witnesses who are utterly batshit in other tribunals - although I am quite seriously pissed off at the effect their incompetence will have on the public right to hear justice being done.

You would have to be able to provide a suitable definition otherwise its simple unenforceable in law and policies will be nonsense [just like now] No one has been able to produce a meaningful definition so far.

Yeah, I started using Twitter as my industry was quite lively there in terms of chat and news sharing. But Bluesky is generally a lot more pious & po-faced, and of course with all the awful stuff generally in the US (which affects US colleagues in my industry, so I keep hearing about it) its pretty depressing and far too few jokes. And yes, an echo-chamber: even if the echoes are ones I tend to agree with (this issue aside), its a bit relentless and monotone.

I seem to spend more time on LinkedIn now - which obviously is is devoid of the exclamations and repartee that used to make Twitter fun, but at least has interesting and useful stuff from my sector. Eh, everything passes huh?

Oh wait, I have just realised I have been defending the retention of "gender reassignment" rather than actually answering the question. Forgive me, that was an inadvertent upton.

Harassedevictee

Thanks for that answer. I can go along with most of it.

Things like sex, race, disability are either observable or recordable, so I had no problem with them at all. Religion and beliefs were more problematic for me because not everyone is religious, but I could only think that they were protected on the basis of having been long established. Even today though there are religious wars although they may be a proxy for some underlying cause.

Gender identity got me stumped. What is it? It was a polite euphemism for sex, but beyond that, I had no idea.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/society-culture-and-history/gender-and-sexual-identity/transgender-doctor-continued-to-use-female-changing-rooms-after-row-tribunal/ar-AA1yOWzU some coverage here from today, mentions the big girl pants.

@CheekySnake as I said cleverer people than me, can come up with a definition. It will be like nailing jelly to the wall with the different factions disagreeing but it is a pragmatic way I can see out of the mess we have now.

I got the same email. I will copy and paste from TT tweets each section that they post so we can still discuss it.

On the bright side, I can see much discussion of cake occurring and how we like to eat it. 😁

I can tell you for a fact that Fife NHS does acquiesce to requests for women docs.

My GP requested a female gynae for me...I was on a 2 wk pathway...but was then told it would be at least 16 wks cos I'm post-meno and might be longer because I wanted a woman doctor. (In the end it was just under the 16 wks.)

I was then referred for a minor op. Got a worried phone call from a secretary after I got my letter referring me to a male. She'd missed the note. (My GP told them I had vaginismus. Sorry - TMI? I'm also in my 60s and have never had kids, so...)

I told her that I'd see a man if it meant being seen sooner.

As it happens, the rest of the team in theatre was all female. The gynae was lovely. Older chap. Very kind. I explained the trauma that had led to the vaginismus. Was actually a positive experience.

If I'd seen Upton or any other man in there pretending to be a woman, I'd have run a mile. Why? I refuse to be examined by a male doctor who pretends to be able to understand what it is to be a woman. If he's that demented, he can't be trusted.

I've no baking to share but this is what I've been doing in-between tribunals .. need to call one Sandie ..

What sex is the parent who gave birth?

Yay! Puppies!

Religion doesn't change you rights with regard to a different characteristic though, does it.

I can't say I've got the protected characteristic of religion so you have to treat me like I'm disabled.

She identifies as a biological male.

He/she/they are a wonderful parent, look at her chest feeding.

You mean ''what is the nebulous dogwhistle of the parent who gave birth?'', BIGOT!

@Mollyollydolly I don't know how you can tear yourself away from them, I have been known to stare adoringly for quite some time at kittens. 💞

Little bit inaccurate to say NHS Fife withheld emails though, when they were Dr Upton's personal emails.

I’m having trouble understanding why it’s acceptable to repeatedly withhold documents, even to the point that NC only realized about more docs today because Upton slipped up? All that seems to happen is a polite request to provide them now?