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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #13

1000 replies

nauticant · 11/02/2025 15:38

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although at the start of the second week getting everything done in this time period was looking less certain. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the liverstreaming, apparently as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but I wouldn't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12

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35
RedToothBrush · 11/02/2025 18:02

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/02/2025 17:57

He is a true believer. He thinks he has behaved unimpeachably, and I don't think it has actually occurred to him that others may think differently about his actions

I'm not sure I agree. Some of the things he said were calculated to wind people up. He's extremely manipulative. I think there is possibly a psychological basis for this.

Big girl pants was not innocent. It was definitely trying to make a point.

As I would argue trying to get the word cis enforced given there is a known controversy over the word and many women feeling it's a slur.

mauvish · 11/02/2025 18:05

Look at some of the recent "supporters" who've pledged "love and treats" for DrU. Specifically, look at some of the names. Not quite who/what you might think!

Greyskybluesky · 11/02/2025 18:05

RedToothBrush · 11/02/2025 18:02

Big girl pants was not innocent. It was definitely trying to make a point.

As I would argue trying to get the word cis enforced given there is a known controversy over the word and many women feeling it's a slur.

I agree. He tried desperately to get NC to use cis as a concession to him.

Cismyfatarse · 11/02/2025 18:06

Trans doctor accused of ‘immersive role play’ in NHS changing room

www.thetimes.com/article/adf6597c-1d6e-4d31-88a1-8479699c15c1?shareToken=29297333de362237b45198ee386d2be3

Bloody love NC.

Mollyollydolly · 11/02/2025 18:06

No doubt Dr Upton will go to a female spa with his tawdry award and make as many women as uncomfortable as possible. What a manipulative man he is.

Retiredfromthere · 11/02/2025 18:07

SqueakyDinosaur · 11/02/2025 17:47

Just when you think that things can't get any madder, "a group of doctor mums" (not sure if that means mums who are doctors or mums of doctors) has set up a crowdfunder named "Love and treats for Dr Beth Upton".

Maybe not all the donors are Upton fans. Of the following 4 most recent donors only one seems to be wishing the doctor well. The others are a tad ... sarcastic

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #13
EasternStandard · 11/02/2025 18:07

Cismyfatarse · 11/02/2025 18:06

Trans doctor accused of ‘immersive role play’ in NHS changing room

www.thetimes.com/article/adf6597c-1d6e-4d31-88a1-8479699c15c1?shareToken=29297333de362237b45198ee386d2be3

Bloody love NC.

Brilliant

NC is fantastic

Meryl Streep is my choice for the movie

teawamutu · 11/02/2025 18:07

I'd like NC to ask Upton what he thinks of this quote by Professor Sir Robert Winston: “I will say this categorically, that you cannot change your sex. Your sex actually is there in every single cell in the body”.

Also, is it not a bit prejudicial to be raising money for the respondent in a case, lamenting their awful treatment?

Brainworm · 11/02/2025 18:07

Very long Tweet here, but thought it worth sharing:

Day 7 Peggie v NHS Fife - Upton’s cross-examination continues to unravel, exposing the glaring contradictions in his testimony.

@tribunaltweets reports that the session may be continuing without the live feed. Here's what happened before the feed was cut.

Naomi Cunningham’s precise questioning, he has been forced to acknowledge uncomfortable truths—none more damning than his admission that women must take the initiative to opt out of being seen by a male doctor rather than having their request for female-only care automatically respected.

The exchanges over female patients requesting a woman doctor were particularly striking. Upton insisted he had no obligation to disclose his sex to patients, despite admitting that it is not always obvious he is male. This led to a critical moment: when asked whether a rape survivor requesting a female doctor should have to explain why, he evaded the point, refusing to acknowledge that placing the burden on the patient to justify her request is cruel and inappropriate. Instead, he tried to equate the issue with other forms of discrimination, suggesting that accommodating a woman’s need for a female doctor was akin to handling a racist patient’s request. This false equivalence speaks volumes about his unwillingness to acknowledge why single-sex care matters.

When Cunningham pressed him on a scenario involving a woman in A&E with unexplained heavy bleeding who explicitly requested a female doctor, Upton’s answer was evasive. He initially suggested it would depend on medical urgency but, when pushed, admitted that if the woman objected to his presence, he would step aside. This seemingly reasonable answer was undermined by the reality that it would fall on the patient to realise he was male in the first place—possibly when she was already in distress and vulnerable. Cunningham pointed out the cruelty of this expectation, highlighting that a woman might only realise he is male once she is already being examined. Rather than acknowledging the obvious problem, Upton deflected, repeating that it was the patient’s responsibility to express discomfort.

The contradictions in his behaviour regarding the changing room incident were also laid bare. On Christmas Eve, he insisted on his right to be in the female changing room despite knowing Peggie was uncomfortable. He framed her discomfort as bigotry rather than a legitimate expectation of privacy. Yet hours later, he claimed to feel unsafe, reporting distress over how Peggie had spoken to him. This inconsistency was key—he was willing to assert his right to be in a space where a woman was uncomfortable, but when faced with an uncomfortable interaction himself, he sought immediate action. Cunningham pressed him on this, pointing out that while he had demanded swift action from NHS Fife, he continued using the female changing room despite knowing Peggie had objected. His justification? That he would not let "bigoted opinions" dictate his behaviour. In other words, he dismissed her right to privacy and forced her into a situation she clearly wished to avoid.

His perception of hostility from Peggie was further scrutinised when it became clear that no one else recalled the incidents in the way he described. He had been documenting perceived slights—such as Peggie responding to another colleague rather than him—but these grievances amounted to little more than workplace friction. When confronted with the fact that neither Peggie nor other staff recalled the incidents he described, he fell back on the idea that it was his perception of hostility that mattered, rather than any objective reality. This was a devastating admission. A case that hinges on serious allegations against Peggie was revealed to rest not on clear-cut evidence, but on Upton’s personal feelings.

Perhaps the most striking moment came when Cunningham suggested that Upton’s determination to control language—insisting on the use of "she/her" pronouns and rejecting biological definitions—was about power. She put it to him that his position required total affirmation from colleagues, and that the issue with Peggie was that she refused to participate in what she described as an "immersive role play." Upton denied this but conceded that it "hurts" when people do not use his preferred language. This, combined with his legal team’s attempts to compel the tribunal to use his chosen terminology, underscores the imbalance at the heart of this case—women must be made to accommodate, but no such obligation is placed on him.

As the session progressed, the underlying theme of power and control became clearer. Upton’s insistence that his identity must be respected, while refusing to extend that same respect to women who request female-only care, was laid bare. His own shifting narrative—asserting himself in the changing room on Christmas Eve, only to claim fear and distress later—suggests an attempt to construct a grievance rather than a genuine concern for safety. His notes, detailing minor slights and perceived rudeness from Peggie, paint a picture not of someone facing discrimination, but of someone determined to build a case against a colleague who simply did not comply with his expectations.

At this stage, Upton’s credibility is in tatters. His testimony has exposed the fundamental flaws in self-ID policies—where women must justify their discomfort, while trans-identifying males are affirmed without question. The tribunal is laying bare the harsh reality of these policies in practice: women cannot opt out without consequence, and when they try, they are accused of bigotry, hostility, or worse. NHS Fife’s position in defending Upton is becoming increasingly indefensible. The tribunal is making it clear that this case is not just about one hospital—it is about whether women’s rights to privacy and dignity still mean anything at all.

Goodenoughisgoodenough · 11/02/2025 18:08

It's going to be accredited media only for the live stream from now on, shame, but great that so many want to view

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #13
GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen · 11/02/2025 18:08

Greyskybluesky · 11/02/2025 18:05

I agree. He tried desperately to get NC to use cis as a concession to him.

No, no surely it was because he couldn't understand her without clarification what with 'woman' being such a nebulous term that lay people can't expect to understand. For something that nuanced surely it would take someone with biological or medical training.... Oh no hang on it's beyond the grasp of Dr too.

WearyAuldWumman · 11/02/2025 18:09

mauvish · 11/02/2025 18:05

Look at some of the recent "supporters" who've pledged "love and treats" for DrU. Specifically, look at some of the names. Not quite who/what you might think!

"
Treat yourself to a shave
11th February 2025
Your behaviour has been shameful."

PML!

Greyskybluesky · 11/02/2025 18:09

mauvish · 11/02/2025 18:05

Look at some of the recent "supporters" who've pledged "love and treats" for DrU. Specifically, look at some of the names. Not quite who/what you might think!

Oh dear!
Bet they wish they'd turned comments off!

EasternStandard · 11/02/2025 18:10

I agree. He tried desperately to get NC to use cis as a concession to him.

NC response to this was inspired and brilliant

She said it was coercive and dominating

Compelled speech is exactly that

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 11/02/2025 18:11

Retiredfromthere · 11/02/2025 18:07

Maybe not all the donors are Upton fans. Of the following 4 most recent donors only one seems to be wishing the doctor well. The others are a tad ... sarcastic

"your female colleagues are so lucky to have you watching out for them in the changing room" why?

Do the biological women need a taller, hirsutier, bepenised biological woman in the changing room to protect them from any men that might be trying to enter?

WearyAuldWumman · 11/02/2025 18:12

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 11/02/2025 18:11

"your female colleagues are so lucky to have you watching out for them in the changing room" why?

Do the biological women need a taller, hirsutier, bepenised biological woman in the changing room to protect them from any men that might be trying to enter?

Look at the name...

"Dr Josie Mengele
11th February 2025
It’s so unfair the way you have been treated! Why shouldn’t you go wherever you want to. Your female colleagues are so lucky to have you watching out for them in the changing room. God bless you. Treat yourself to a new Blahaj my lovely!! Xx"

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/02/2025 18:12

your female colleagues are so lucky to have you watching out for them in the changing room" why?

I imagine that's sarcasm.

mauvish · 11/02/2025 18:12

I'm late to this thread so this has probably already received comment:

I’m asking all colleagues to treat me with respect as I treat them

Who do you think might have said that? Why, the person who respects women's rights to choose who to have examine their body and who to share an intimate place with, of course.

NotAGentleReminder · 11/02/2025 18:12

Just realised the comparator for sex discrimination is someone of the opposite sex, not the same as I got wrong earlier (duh). But could be argued a woman mistreated due to having visible effects of testosterone/double mastectomy could be protected under PC of disability (as she has been permanently medically harmed). Could she even still be protected under PC of sex as you wouldn't mistreat a man for having facial hair, deep voice and no breasts? Again, it's clear I'm not a lawyer. But I'm still not convinced the PC of GR needs to remain to protect those who have undergone irreversible 'gender affirming' procedures.

WearyAuldWumman · 11/02/2025 18:12

Greyskybluesky · 11/02/2025 18:09

Oh dear!
Bet they wish they'd turned comments off!

They've deleted a couple now.

mauvish · 11/02/2025 18:14

I had to check what a "blahaj" is. Apparently they're popular in the "trans community".

NotNatacha · 11/02/2025 18:14

Taytoface · 11/02/2025 17:51

Also, been refraining from commenting on his appearance, but now we have been kicked out, m'eh. Does it appear to anyone else that he now magically looks quite like his wife. Especially in the nose department.

While we’re thinking of appearance…

I’ve only watched Thursday - Tuesday’s tribunals. I’m not 100% sure about Thursday, but on the following three days Dr Upton seems to have been wearing the same clothes: a dark green polo necked top, (good for hiding a male-indicating Adam’s apple, if one were there) black jacket and skirt.

I think Dr Upton’s supporters have all been mostly, if not exclusively, wearing trousers.

Is it likely that the reporters will mention if Dr Upton wears the same outfit for the rest of Dr Upton’s appearances?

I’m not particularly interested in Dr Upton’s clothes, just that they don’t seem to vary at all. That’s unusual in professionals, in my experience. Perhaps Dr Upton had received advice on what to wear and wasn’t expecting to be giving evidence over so many days.

Retiredfromthere · 11/02/2025 18:14

WearyAuldWumman · 11/02/2025 18:12

Look at the name...

"Dr Josie Mengele
11th February 2025
It’s so unfair the way you have been treated! Why shouldn’t you go wherever you want to. Your female colleagues are so lucky to have you watching out for them in the changing room. God bless you. Treat yourself to a new Blahaj my lovely!! Xx"

Had to look up Blahaj and its a plush toy shark from IKEA. Wikipedia supplies this explanation.

Why is the blahaj so popular?

As a cultural phenomenon

Some transgender people buy a Blåhaj or receive one as a gift as a rite of passage after coming out

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