NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #13

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although at the start of the second week getting everything done in this time period was looking less certain. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the liverstreaming, apparently as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but I wouldn't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12

He will say not all women have periods. Some women have hysterectomies. My genitals are female b/c I am female. Some women can't get pregnant. Studies have shown that transwomen have a hormonal cycle. I am more cleverer than you because I understand Science and you don't.

I would bet my house on it at this stage.

Yes. I'm considering making a complaint, this is not open justice.

Just picking up on something mentioned at the end of the last thread. The GMC only records the gender and not the sex of their doctors, so they're making all doctors have a gender. Making them all participants in gender ideology regardless of their actual beliefs.

I think there is a times scotland article now, but paywalled

https://x.com/moleatthedoor/status/1889349994408276227
This?
Yeah the picture didn't work.

I don't know the answer to what the other person meant by that but this is already the status quo (according to the EquA and current (albeit first tier) Employment Tribunal decisions.

There is already :

The PC of sex and another PC of gender reassignment which according to the decision of Taylor v Jaguar Landrover includes anyone who declares a trans identity including non binary, no reassignment surgery necessary, so therefore gender identity.

www.lambchambers.co.uk/latest-news/taylor-v-jaguar-land-rover-limited/

I was having a similar conversation with someone IRL, Peregrina - I said that surely sex+religion/ belief covered all the bases, but she countered with the example of a TIF being discriminated against because she's obviously on testosterone. So there might be situations where someone genuinely is discriminated against because they're undergoing a "transition", where there is no appropriate comparator of sex (ie if other men and women are both treated equally in that context) or religion/ belief. I was somewhat swayed by that argument - and as long as the law around it is clear, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. (Also bear in mind that it works both ways - it means that people who aren't trying to reassign their gender are protected too.)

Yes, it's HMCTS administering this

Thanks @nauticant

I wonder if NHS Fife will have a different barrister

Also huge thanks to nauticant for managing the mega-series of threads.

This might work (it's under review for being potentially inappropriate. Presumably it will be posted shortly

Yes, and this is also true of patients. Electronic Health Record only records a 'gender marker'. We're all sucked in, like it or not.

But isn't a tif on testosterone still sex discrimination?

Because surely any discrimination will be due to the fact that she's a female showing the effects of excess testosterone.

Here's the Times article:

https://archive.ph/7oiSE

I imagine anyone whose trans status causes them to seek medical treatment (by taking medication in the form of testosterone) may well qualify for the pc of disability, which I think is broad enough to cover any medial condition that affects your daily life. @SelfPortraitWithHagstone

Poor Mythical Pete. I was getting quite fond of him. 💐

(albeit first tier)

The key point here. It wasn't challenged by JLR and its not a binding decision. The claimant was also a bog standard MTF person as per the EA who was covered anyway, not "agender", "genderqueer" or something similar.

I wouldn't play into the TRAs' hands by giving it more weight than it has.

It's far more important that we have open access to see what the NHS says in this case than one random doctor.

It's one thing for an individual to be harassing, bullying another colleague. It's quite another for a public tax funded body to be enabling him or worsening the situation.

I'll bet my bollocks that they had no idea - why would they think any such horribleness from the lovely smiley Dr Beth!? Shame on you!

To be clear - I don't have any bollocks to actually bet but I identify with having some so frankly take it up with my Dr if you object

Absolutely

As maddening as it has been this is systemic

We are here due to legislation and institutions

I bet that specific question was never asked, either. I would like to know if they were aware of just how far his insistence that he's a woman actually goes, that there appears to be no boundary that he is unwilling to cross.

Mmm I'm not sure, disability is defined as a physical or mental condition has a significant impact on their ability to carry out day to day activities.

I'm not sure claiming to have a gendered brain would meet that definition. There are no day to day activities they can't partake in.

As for the impact of taking the drugs causing a disability then this may also be problematic because 'self inflicted' issues like alcoholism or recreational drug use are exclusions.

@KohlaParasaurus "I am very much looking forward, in a ghoulish sort of way, to hearing the testimony of those who are complicit in having facilitated the behaviour of this unsavoury individual and who should have known better."

Oh me too.....Having worked in various parts of the public sector including the NHS I know first hand how poorly run some HR teams are.

Just spotted this from Michael Foran:

unherd.com/newsroom/has-there-been-a-cover-up-in-nhs-scotland-trans-case/

@peregrina Peregrina · Today 16:35

and gender (identity) added as a separate protected characteristic.
Why do you consider it should be a separate protected characteristic?

We maxed out the other thread while I was typing my response 😂

Several reason’s

• gender and sex have historically been used interchangeably but the current conflation is not helping create clarity
• A concession to get sex clarified as recorded at birth, biological or natal sex etc. (people cleverer than me can define the definition)
• gender identity should be a belief under Religion or Belief pc but in the current climate I think we need a clear definition and that it is acceptable to not have a gender identity. It would also allow other elements to be set out such as a definition of non-binary, pronouns being limited to she/her, he/him, they/them and not the squillion variations, what transphobia is and is not etc.
• It would help employers, service providers, schools etc. by providing clarity on when sex matters and the boundaries they can put in place to respect people who do (and don’t) have a gender identity e.g. third spaces, how to navigate sex based rights vs gender identity based rights, data collection etc.

I do not believe we can completely undo where we have reached. There have always been people with gender incongruence. By clearly separating sex and gender (identity) we reflect a changing society whilst also preserving hard won women’s sex based rights.

I know not everyone will agree with me but I am pragmatic about what is achievable.