NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #11

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although at the start of the second week getting everything done in this time period was looking less certain. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10

God sake they've muted everyone, including the tribunal now

oh yes it's a white screen with heraldry and court text warning etc
is this a good sign? should i hang there?

Continuation thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12

What’s the Snickers bar case?

I do have sympathy for the Court Clerks I imagine they usually have a handful of online observers at most. 100s is a new challenge as each case is heard at a different court.

I agree YouTube streaming like the Post Office Inquiry would be much better. You could also watch on catch up.

How is Sandie expected to remember a claimed incident months earlier - as I believe they didnt interview her even in January, maybe April? if they wont even tell her the date?

@SauvignonBlanche Patient anaphylactic.

Yes. There has been over 600 observers. It takes a while to admit everyone it doing it one by one.

Michael Foran twitter/x:
'NC but SP gave precise date didn't she?
DU not familiar with SPs evidence
NC she recalled that it was halloween and reason patient was in resus was bc child had been given sweet with peanuts
DU that's a different patient to what I'm referring to. These are two diff patients.

NC on the same shift
DU it is possible for me to see two patients on the same shift, yes.
NC so we can date the incident?
DU I remember the snickers bad but I can't link all patients to dates

NC so you are recalling working with SP with two patients on same shift
DU don't recall working with her on snickers bar case
NC but you recall her working with you without incident on that patient
DU yes

DU child with peanut allergy was more serious - but all patients with breathing issues are serious
NC you are recalling now having worked with SP on two different patients on same shift
DU no I recall working with SP on one patient but don't recall working with SP on peanut patient

NC but rare for you to work with SP?
DU fairly rare but higher stress situation so awareness was altered
NC would not have been difficult for board to come up with complete list of shared shifts - could just be one?
DU yes but shift information is private information of claimant

NC you're making this up as you go along Dr Upton?
DU No
NC what really happened is you did work with SP on snickers bar patient. You have made up the allegation that she abandoned that patient in order to leave the room because she couldn't bear to work with you'

(Apologies if already dealt with) Medical record systems log which records people have accessed. It surely wouldn't have been difficult to cross reference when they were on shift together between the dates then work out which patient it was and from that you'd know the date? ESP if it's so very unusual for doctors to record obs (which I know it isn't) as the notes would record who took them

Sadly I don't have any and threw all my ginormous maternity pants away. So i'm just going to have to be very, very sad and upset at the weird and disrespectful and harassing behaviour of the court towards me.

"NC you're making this up as you go along Dr Upton? DU No NC what really happened is you did work with SP on snickers bar patient. You have made up the allegation that she abandoned that patient in order to leave the room because she couldn't bear to work with you"

Agree. If I go anywhere and need to change (gym or pool or whatever) with people I don't know, if there's a cubicle free I will always use it. If not, I always get changed discretely, turned the other way or whatever. I know some people don't care, and aren't self conscious, but igetting changed, full frontal is not high on my list of fun things to do.

Michael Foran twitter/x:
'NC you deliberately failed to give the Board best info about this date because you had your phone notes, even if you couldn't remember halloween. I'm suggesting you made this up and kept date range vague to stop it being checked
DU no not true at all

DU I'm not in the habit of making up lies about my colleagues. I record things that happen to me if they feel unusual so that I can feel safe. They are my interpretations of these events. thats all I can speak to'

NC you deliberately failed to give the Board best info about this date because you had your phone notes, even if you couldn't remember halloween. I'm suggesting you made this up and kept date range vague to stop it being checked DU no not true at all

From Michael Foran’s tweets it appears DU didn’t give a specific patient for his complaint of professional negligence.

DU has given a time range in which it happens but with no patient details they can’t check what SP did or didn’t do. Very nebulous complaint.

DU says it’s not the patient SP recalls so which patient was it.

DU I'm not in the habit of making up lies about my colleagues. I record things that happen to me if they feel unusual so that I can feel safe. They are my interpretations of these events. thats all I can speak to

Video but no audio.

Just in case it helps others:
When I was trying to get in mid-morning it took a while. First attempt I had a black screen for 5 mins. After a while a list of participants appeared in the chat column and again, it took a while for the courtroom to appear.

When I was booted out at around 11:30 I had the Court Screen, while waiting. I am on latest Mac OS, using Chrome.

If you record them why no detail of patient date etc.

Michael Foran twitter/x:
'NC we will come back to resus but now Qs on order in which you told story. You spoke to EP immediately after incident, said in chief you wrote up notes on phone in care before leaving.
DU yes

NC you emailed KS on Xmas morning when you got home
NC yes
NC takes to new document produced only last week'

Still WFTCHTJ

So he doesn't make a contemporaneous not a out the resus incident? That seems unlike him

NC is moving onto the newly disclosed documents.

Does this count as such a test I wonder?

https://x.com/anyabike/status/1749777661855940901?t=l1yUo1FfVow2zMUIGqbAQ&s=19

Specifically the bit where it was accepted by the claimant (Maya Forstater) that a belief that we all have a gender identity is protected (as a philosophical belief) in the Equality Act. What I don't know - as IANAL - is whether this being part of the judgement is enough to give it legal status as having "offically" passed the Grainger test or if this specific point doesn't matter, because the protection not to believe in it is more important here.

It would be good to know.