NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #11

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although at the start of the second week getting everything done in this time period was looking less certain. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10

Previously I saw the email address to use for writing to the Chief Exec of NHS Fife re Upton but I can't find it now. I NEED to write. Does anyone have it please?

Would it be possible for discussion to be on the previous thread until that one is full, see here:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10

Oh my gosh! Let's hope she let him wear them for good luck or some nice reason!

I'm not on Twitter (too frightened) so can't see for myself

Thanks @nauticant

Not sure I can cope with his soap boxing today

Just incredible. It takes a wilfull amount of ideology to ignore such basic biological facts. But then, I did geology at university with quite a startling number of creationist Christians. It's like science is a useful model to predict the world but is irrelevant to belief. Like medieval astronomy.

Medical training is full of 'men's health' and 'women's health' - my local trust has a 'women's health centre'. I wonder whether DU feels a women's health department would be relevant to DU? If not, why not? But I have long since stopped expecting any of it to make sense.

I am a doctor. I do not believe for a minute that this ridiculous young man believes most of the garbled nonsense he is saying about sex and male and female. He however arrogant enough to think that it doesn't matter if what he is saying is true or not, it's enough that he is saying it.

I do believe the GMC should become involved. Spouting this anti-science (anti-reality) risible (and far from harmless) guff, while under oath and in a very public forum, is the very definition of bringing the profession into disrepute.

PS I didn't realise when I wrote the post above that he had questioned the very mechanism of sexual reproduction! That is another level. Not just anti-medicine but anti-biology! He is pretty "special", I'll give him that.

@theDudesmummy that is exactly what I've been wondering - whether there is a case for the GMC to investigate bringing the medical profession into disrepute? Can you point out anything in the GMC code of conduct which would suggest this is a possibility/whether there would be a case to answer?

It does mean that trying to catch him out in an inconsistency is unlikely to be a rewarding examination technique

I agree - there’s no point wasting time trying to pole holes in his ideology and logic. He’s delusional, he won’t budge, NC has done a good job showing that he’s narcissistic, has fixed delusional beliefs and lacks empathy, no point in going further. He won’t admit that body parts or functions are sex-specific, as it is all about the Lady Feelz

Thanks for the new thread @nauticant

He's talking unscientific nonsense. For a start the blood reference ranges are different for males and females on many tests - it's downright dangerous to pretend male and female are 'nebulous' categories.

https://apps.nhslothian.scot/files/sites/2/Gender-specific-reference-ranges-for-blood-tests.pdf

So how do youn think NC needs to prosecute her case in defence of SP. What does she need to demonstrate, and how can she do it?

One of the GMC standards is: promoting and maintaining public confidence in the medical professions.

In domain 4: You must make sure that your conduct justifies patients' trust in you and the public's trust in your profession

Saying in public that there is no definition of male and female and that such concepts are "nebulous" is in my opinion way into the sphere of undermining public trust in the profession.

Pmk

Surely it hinges on the actual NHS policy around single sex spaces, and whether the correct processes were followed in :
a) allowing DU to enter, and
b) censuring SP for objecting.

And as part of b) clarifying whether the admonishment was fleshed out by a patient safety concern.

NC has already, IMO, ascertained that DU probably just went in the female change rooms because he felt he deserved to be there, rather than this necessarily being hospital policy. I wonder if the hospital policy changed or was interpreted differently as the investigation went on, hence the debate about the missing emails. All of this is still to come.

NC isn’t going to win SP’s case against the NHS by a back and forth with DU where she tells him he’s male and he denies it, whilst spouting TRA nonsense,

I initially felt some sympathy for Upton’s wife. Can’t imagine getting married and then your husband announces very quickly after that he’s now some sort of woman. However, reading back Upton claims that it was his wife who encouraged him to write the first complaint email in the early hours of Christmas Day. That’s his side of the story.

We don't know anything about Upton's wife and it's probably best to leave speculation about her out of these threads.

@Justme56 maybe she just wanted to shut him up? I can imagine living with him is wearing

I get the feeling she encouraged him to transition.... whatever her emotional motive.

I would not have confidence in a doctor who spouted such unscientific and potentially medically dangerous nonsense, and would not want to be treated by such a doctor.

Thank you. Looking forward to the rest of the cross examination

Isn't one of SP's claims for sexual harrassment - directly agaunst DU, though?

This "becoming your wife" seems to be a TRA theme - the trans widows community frequently report exactly this happening. It's creepy AF.

Morning all. I was just musing how absolutely terrifying I would find it if someone like DU was in a vulnerable space with me. He sets off all my spidey senses.
Edit to add: I stand by my earlier opinion of him, hes just another creepy man.

Watch as he comes in today. Watch how he one-handed unbuttons his jacket. He did that yesterday and I had a flashback of my father sitting down in a suit. I know women may also do this, but it just looked so male. Just an observation