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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #11

1000 replies

nauticant · 10/02/2025 23:21

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although at the start of the second week getting everything done in this time period was looking less certain. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10

OP posts:
nauticant · 10/02/2025 23:23

I've set up this continuation thread very much ahead of time in case there's active posting overnight and the previous thread becomes full.

If you would continue posting over on the previous thread and once that one is full, post on this one, that would be great. Thanks.

OP posts:
GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 10/02/2025 23:28

Place mark. Thanks for forward planning. Again!

healthybychristmas · 10/02/2025 23:32

Thank you so much! Is there anyway we can watch what went on in court now as I couldn't at the time?

nauticant · 10/02/2025 23:34

Unfortunately not. The only ways to watch are in person or on the livestream at the time it's being streamed.

OP posts:
Sneezeless · 10/02/2025 23:35

Slightly OT but are there any medics about who have been following this? If so, what do you think of Upton's statements regarding woman being hard to define and the rest of his proclamations about biology. It would be interesting to hear your opinions.

healthybychristmas · 10/02/2025 23:40

Thanks.

healthybychristmas · 10/02/2025 23:41

I would like to know that about the medics as well.

ScreamingBeans · 10/02/2025 23:41

watched some of it today.

That guy is bloody awful. The mansplaining and arrogance was startling.

fashionqueen0123 · 10/02/2025 23:42

A few medics on Twitter have commented. Let’s just say the ones I saw were not impressed!

nauticant · 10/02/2025 23:47

Would it be possible for discussion to be on the previous thread until that one is full, see here:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10

OP posts:
BoreOfWhabylon · 10/02/2025 23:47

Thanks @nauticant Flowers

Britinme · 10/02/2025 23:48

Just seen this on X:

NC: 'you need a large gamete and small gamete person to produce babies.
DU: 'I'm sure there are people who believe those things. Doesn't make them right'

I kind of hoped a qualified doctor would 'believe' those things...

Datun · 11/02/2025 01:13

Placemarking

Heggettypeg · 11/02/2025 01:25

Deleted, sorry wrong place

SummerBreezemakesmefeelfine · 11/02/2025 02:14

.

QueenProtea · 11/02/2025 06:04

Checking in.

CarefulN0w · 11/02/2025 07:06

Signing in - I've a busy day today, so will catch up later on, thank you to everyone here and at TT for sharing the updates and your views.

ClioMuse · 11/02/2025 07:27

Place marking. In work today but look forward to catching up on my breaks

GiveMeSpanakopita · 11/02/2025 07:44

Just popping in to say thank you all for such intelligent and perspicaceous insights on these threads. I have been working my way through. Beyond Sandie's individual case, I feel that this case really signs a spotlight on the widespread institutional tendency on the part of the NHS to gaslight and isolate 'difficult' people, whether they be patients or staff. There's a closing of the ranks, and women suffer disproprtionately.

Also, I appreciate this is very much not the point of the thread, but I feel very sorry for Upton's wife. He's basically skinwalking her. Same hairstyle, same earrings and everything. She must be finding all of this incredibly difficult.

elgreco · 11/02/2025 07:55

.

ZeldaFighter · 11/02/2025 07:55

GiveMeSpanakopita · 11/02/2025 07:44

Just popping in to say thank you all for such intelligent and perspicaceous insights on these threads. I have been working my way through. Beyond Sandie's individual case, I feel that this case really signs a spotlight on the widespread institutional tendency on the part of the NHS to gaslight and isolate 'difficult' people, whether they be patients or staff. There's a closing of the ranks, and women suffer disproprtionately.

Also, I appreciate this is very much not the point of the thread, but I feel very sorry for Upton's wife. He's basically skinwalking her. Same hairstyle, same earrings and everything. She must be finding all of this incredibly difficult.

Are there any pictures of this? Thanks

myplace · 11/02/2025 07:56

Placemark.

Boiledbeetle · 11/02/2025 08:13

I'm out this morning so don't want to lose a whole thread, so yes, this is a very blatant placemarking post.

Hopefully NC is still grilling DU by the time I get home. If she's not I'll just have to rely on the no doubt many posts of WTF did he just say.

See you later

GiveMeSpanakopita · 11/02/2025 08:19

ZeldaFighter · 11/02/2025 07:55

Are there any pictures of this? Thanks

Yeah i found em on twitter. He's wearing the exact same 'star' earrings she wore on the wedding day, in their wedding pics, and he's done his hair just like her too, that close feathery cut with light bangs.

KohlaParasaurus · 11/02/2025 08:22

Most times, when people talk along the lines of "woman is hard to define and sex isn't as simple as YOU think", they're referring to a few rare DSDs. They're particularly fond of misusing Swyer syndrome and de la Chapelle syndrome as evidence that any fully grown adult human male should be accepted as a woman and allowed full access to women's spaces and women's sports if he says the magic words.

It's a little interesting that Upton didn't deliver a lecture about the actual biological complexities of sex development in humans, which would be irrelevant to his situation but would at least show that he'd been listening in medical school, and talked a lot of nonsense that's as impossible to pin down as auras and meridians. It's as if he got his medical education in a parallel universe.

I expect more of the same airy-fairy obfuscation in response to efforts to get him to square the circle of providing evidence based medical management, or even basic safe care, for medical conditions that are sex specific or present very differently in men and women if he regards biological sex as nebulous. He will have assertive non-answers for "biological women" like himself with prostatitis and "biological men" with pregnancy complications.

The fact that he's got an answer to everything that's broadly consistent with what he's already said doesn't mean he's honest or even sane. People with fixed delusions (this is an example, I'm not suggesting a diagnosis) can be remarkably skilled at rationalising their bizarre and firmly held beliefs. It does mean that trying to catch him out in an inconsistency is unlikely to be a rewarding examination technique.

I don't know whether he's mad or bad, but whichever it is, he's doing it well.

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