NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #11

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although at the start of the second week getting everything done in this time period was looking less certain. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10

Are we allowed to copy Michael Foran's live commentary on here?

Michael Foran is now live tweeting to plug the gap if you want to carry on following it

I haven't read 1984 for a while, so I didn't realise yesterday quite how apt that analogy was. It's not enough to say you believe something, you have to truly think it too.

'How many fingers, Winston?' 'Four! Stop it, stop it! How can you go on? Four! Four!' 'How many fingers, Winston?' 'Five! Five! Five!' 'No, Winston, that is no use. You are lying. You still think there are four. How many fingers, please?' 'Four! five! Four! Anything you like. Only stop it, stop the pain!' (.....) 'You are a slow learner, Winston,' said O'Brien gently. 'How can I help it?' he blubbered. 'How can I help seeing what is in front of my eyes? Two and two are four.' 'Sometimes, Winston. Sometimes they are five. Sometimes they are three. Sometimes they are all of them at once. You must try harder. It is not easy to become sane.' (.....) O'Brien smiled slightly. 'You are a flaw in the pattern, Winston. .... It is intolerable to us that an erroneous thought should exist anywhere in the world, however secret and powerless it may be.

...

Michael Foran is attempting to Tweet. NC is scratching her head about why no date for the alleged resuss incident (just sometime between Oct-Dec).

Shouts: Ask if he entered a Datix report

Just a thought, but I think it must be very difficult to be the wife of someone who is described by a legal bod in a court hearing as potentially engaging in coercive control by forcing everyone around them to comply with pronouns and immersive role play.

I don’t understand nitter. Can we follow there instead? I’m not logged in on X!

Looks like I was trying to join at the very moment everyone else was being kicked out. I couldn't find an option to join with the mike/camera being disabled but was able to do so once in the waiting room.

I deal with on-line hearings on a fairly regular basis (not tribunal hearings), & issues with the system aren't uncommon. Of course, it is uncommon to have so many people wanting to join & I have no idea whether overloading the system is a thing or not. I would go with a straight forward system error rather than a conspiracy theory at this stage.

I am maybe more than usually alert to this issue, having been on an online course unmuted and loudly complaining to my DM that the course was 'fucking boring'.

I don't think I can ever face anyone from my profession in person ever again after that.

I'm not on twitter, would appreciate a comemntary.

Damn, I thought I was going to marry her! Have told my DH too.

Is Michael allowed to tweet? I thought permission had to be sought and granted?

Michael Foran appears to be updating on x

Me too. But I imagine the chance of them letting us back in this side of lunch are very low.

Back in! But no sound

Now that NC is back onto the contents of his phone messages things are proceeding more smoothly, as he has to give ( although still being evasive) straight answers rather than ideological waffle.

I'm still WFTCHTJ

NC pointing out to DrU that he has form for taking lots of notes so it VV odd he can't narrow down the date

Disappointing that this basic technology can't be sorted out. I guess that they are trying to use their standard conferencing system for public access

I guess that WFTCHTJ means I might be able to get some work done

Can see the tribunal now but no sound.

Well done Michael Foran. Wish I was there, I can touch type pretty fast.

Had I known the court would fuck up so badly as to allow denial of open justice I would have made efforts to attend in person.

This is really bad. SP's testimony was live streamed so it's unfair to her for there to be such inequality also. Possibly you could say it's discrimination in favour of the respondents? At least she'd have a very strong case for appeal if needed.

The only reason we know so many newspaper reports were wholly inaccurate was because we had open justice. This has been the whole problem with trans ideology from the start. Gaining a knowledge of what they really mean by 'basic respect' (i.e. compelled speech and behaviour) is denied by the media. the courts, the NHS and other institutions.

Michael Foran - Twix

I'm going to try to do a contemporaneous log of cross-examination of Dr Upton but I am not skilled at this, expect innacuracies and delay - apologies.

NC on resus incident, you give broad date range
DU yes
NC When you say between Oct and 18 Dec how do you place it?
DU bc my last recorded incidents

NC puts phone notes to DU. Does this mean you think this incident happened between Oct 25 and 18 Dec
DU I suspect so
NC by 25th why not narrow it down in investigation to between Oct 25 to 18 Dec

finding notes
NC this incident described in formal complaint but no date given or date range?
DU No. But I put it between 25 Oct and 18 Dec so probably between those dates

NC turn to page - that is letter on July 19 2024 inviting SP to investigatory meeting. Resus incident is described as between Oct and 18 Dec. So when AG is investigating, she can't narrow date range from beginning of Oct and 18 Dec
goes to notes

NC takes DU to interview notes where says between October and Dec
DU yes
NC You know you're taking part in an investigation, must know that yo equip managers to investigate properly they need best information possible

DU I did give best info
NC but you didn't, your supposedly contemporaneous notes had a narrower date range, you had those notes all the time didn't you?
DU yes
NC so you had a narrower range and you didn't give it
DU that was error on my part

Same here

One of the hardest things about coercive control is that it's often very difficult to see when you're in it. All you have is a permanent headache and raging anxiety, while the other person seems perfectly calm and rational. And will often tell you that everyone else agrees with them/believes the same things they do.

I can’t begin to imagine how stressful this has all been for Sandie. Trying to deal with this, asking for help, not getting it. Being suspended, not told why, told she can’t talk to colleagues, then accused of patient safety issues.

We have found it so stressful just listening to him over two days - I can’t imagine how she’s tolerated this. At least now she knows for sure that the vast majority of people are with her and see what she has seen.

What is WFTCHTJ please?