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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

FWR Mumsnet again the baddies for wanting to protect breastfeeding babies...

52 replies

Delphinium20 · 17/07/2023 21:01

We made the top paragraph and we're 'notorious'. Evan Urquart, a transman who writes for slate and has no children, has opinions on transwomen breastfeeding, likely due Uquart's spouse being one. But I'm speculating...perhaps Evan is simply mad at women wanting to protect babies.

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20230717131001/slate.com/technology/2023/07/trans-women-breastfeeding-safe-mumsnet.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://web.archive.org/web/20230717131001/slate.com/technology/2023/07/trans-women-breastfeeding-safe-mumsnet.html

What the Freakout Over Trans Women Breastfeeding Is Really About

The science behind it is actually pretty neat.

https://web.archive.org/web/20230717131001/https://slate.com/technology/2023/07/trans-women-breastfeeding-safe-mumsnet.html

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 17/07/2023 21:39

Well. Every assurance that article gave was prefaced with the negating of that confidence. It is ‘known’ about the composition of male secretions…. One study. Or. Sorry. ‘At least one’…. No… we know there is just one. That writer obviously read our thread and found that study listed.

And it goes on in that vein. There is this drug, except there is no conclusive evidence of safety to babies.

What a remarkable piece of misinformation. If that writer actually read enough of our thread, they might have learned something. As it was, just because females can relactate (we know this) and some cultures do this more regularly (we know this too), doesn’t make a male feeding an infant unknown secretions ok.

teawamutu · 17/07/2023 21:40

The literature is 'mixed', but 'at least one study' suggested that drug-induced moob juice was 'adequately nutritious'.

So there, transphobes 🙄

Helleofabore · 17/07/2023 21:43

Hardly convincing is it tea. Considering that ‘one’ study was man with a tumour and testosterone wasn’t checked. And the drug being used wasn’t one he was using at all.

So was actually pretty irrelevant.

But is supposedly convincing…..

teawamutu · 17/07/2023 21:53

I really don't think there's anything that shows the TRA lobby's priorities more clearly than the total lack of concern (or even attention) shown to tiny fragile newborns when adult male feelings are at stake.

I cut down on fucking COFFEE. And paracetamol. And chilli.

FFS.

Helleofabore · 17/07/2023 22:05

teawamutu · 17/07/2023 21:53

I really don't think there's anything that shows the TRA lobby's priorities more clearly than the total lack of concern (or even attention) shown to tiny fragile newborns when adult male feelings are at stake.

I cut down on fucking COFFEE. And paracetamol. And chilli.

FFS.

And wine. And cheese!!

Faffertea · 17/07/2023 22:06

The attempt at applying any sort of science or logic to this is really very painful.

<Bangs head on desk repeatedly>

MrsOvertonsWindow · 17/07/2023 22:11

Presumably an ideology where some cheerlead the experimental medical treatment of healthy but mentally unwell children is not going to hesitate about experimenting on babies.

meowgender · 17/07/2023 22:18

Nice to get a mention though. The author even linked directly to the thread. Hopefully will attract a few curious and critical thinkers.

hamstersarse · 17/07/2023 22:22

It hurts my head that we even have to have this ‘debate’

If it weren’t so goddamn dangerous I’d be saying to these lunatics that they should prove it by nourishing a baby on their moob juice for a week, god even a day would suffice.

KiteofUncertainty · 17/07/2023 22:30

Women are selfishly trying to hog breastfeeding when the special men want in on it.
We are Very Bad Women.

Forwarder · 17/07/2023 22:49

Adoptive mothers of infants, eg from surrogacy or their female partner has a baby, have tried to induce lactation. They might get a small amount of milk, but nothing like the supply that is summoned by birth hormones. And this is actual biological females with actual mammary glands.

RealityFan · 17/07/2023 22:58

There's also now just the one study on trans in women's sport, so I guess something in common.

This is just a culture grab. They want to plant their flags on your territory, burn down your flags, and declare you never had the territory to begin.

PurpleWhiteandGreen · 17/07/2023 23:11

It's not even one study. It's one man in one study. I'm sure that's what the abstract said.

What's with the folklore from around the world? What does that prove except people/cultures have overactive imagination? Unless, of course, it's the only way of bringing in more inclusivity points into the writing?

ArabeIIaScott · 17/07/2023 23:26
American Crime Story Impeachment GIF by FX Networks

So, wims.

Delphinium20 · 18/07/2023 01:21

Maybe we should all be like Daenyris Targaryan and milk our dragon babies...folklore, ya' know.

OP posts:
Delphinium20 · 18/07/2023 01:21

*Daenerys. Sorry, Mother of Dragons, I mis-spelled you.

OP posts:
miri1985 · 18/07/2023 02:38

I mean wouldn't it be an easy study to find out if it was equally nutritous, plentiful etc as normal breast milk? The hormone levels, how much of this drug passes through? You have to ask why hasn't that study been done before this is pushed.

When you think of how much research about pregnant/breastfeeding women isn't done because of danger to the baby. This one just requires milk to be expressed with a pump over a few weeks and then the results to be analysed but instead its best just to give it to babies without any kind of research.

I would find this whole thing more understandable if people like the writer of this article had been similarly campaigning for better research into things like basic painkillers for women breastfeeding but no its just this in order to help transwomen lactate.

Froodwithatowel · 18/07/2023 08:31

Yeah a male person has to be stuffed full of drugs, which if a woman was involved would be considered unacceptable, as is all the foods etc she can't eat because BABY (but male wants trumps baby life and health obvs).

Male milk does not provide the amazing benefits that breast milk can because the mother's body actually adapts and changes the milk to match the baby's need. Male milk is merely 'adequate' in fat content and calories. Yeah, so formula at this point is more than 'adequate' isn't it? If your interest is in your child's nutrition and development as opposed to your own personal need.

And then a male even on full drugged up state cannot produce enough milk to feed a child. Merely to provide a small percentage of the feeding.

So let's name the elephant here: this is about wanting a child to suck your nipples so that a male can feel lovely. And there may well be parts of that feeling lovely that are extremely questionable, because an adequate parent does not use their child as a tool for meeting any of their needs, and some need meeting using children is absolutely unacceptable. This cannot be ignored and indulged because we're all supposed to go awwww and applaud like a bunch of sealions because so progressive and lovely and inclusive!

No, find some boundaries and your common sense ffs, you're being had.

PurpleWhiteandGreen · 18/07/2023 08:40

And then we have this:

www.realityslaststand.com/p/is-there-a-doctor-in-the-house

The authors argue that “gendered” pregnancy care is too focused on helping women have healthy babies, and that it might be okay for transmen to continue taking testosterone during pregnancy despite the known health risks to the fetus and effects on its normal development. The desire for “normal fetal outcomes,” according to the authors, is rooted in a problematic desire “to protect their offspring from becoming anything other than ‘normal’” and “reflect historical and ongoing social practices for creating ‘ideal’ and normative bodies.”
I'm too angry to write anything coherent right now.

JayAlfredPrufrock · 18/07/2023 08:46

😱😱😱

teawamutu · 18/07/2023 08:48

This has really upset me. I'm reliving the months spent stressing about feeding my premature baby.

I lost sleep, I cried when he wouldn't feed and I cried when he fed and sicked it up again. I ate boring, bland food to make the milk as non-irritant as possible. I spent bloody hours on the breast pump. I spent bloody hours googling.

I consulted experts. I haunted the preemie board here. I cried some more.

If at any point there'd been the slightest hint that formula was better for my baby, I'd have switched in a heartbeat, no matter how much it hurt me.

I felt like a complete failure as a mother many times, but at no point was my own validation even a consideration.

They have no idea. No. Fucking. Idea.

HermioneWeasley · 18/07/2023 08:52

To quote the Leeds spinners “wrong side of history my arse”

Froodwithatowel · 18/07/2023 08:57

PurpleWhiteandGreen · 18/07/2023 08:40

And then we have this:

www.realityslaststand.com/p/is-there-a-doctor-in-the-house

The authors argue that “gendered” pregnancy care is too focused on helping women have healthy babies, and that it might be okay for transmen to continue taking testosterone during pregnancy despite the known health risks to the fetus and effects on its normal development. The desire for “normal fetal outcomes,” according to the authors, is rooted in a problematic desire “to protect their offspring from becoming anything other than ‘normal’” and “reflect historical and ongoing social practices for creating ‘ideal’ and normative bodies.”
I'm too angry to write anything coherent right now.

I actually saw an article yesterday saying that regarding singing in tune as being better musically was an oppressive western construct. Now I see that valuing a child's life and health over an adult's wants and feelings is an oppressive western construct too.

Fuck this, no, it bloody isn't, it's a desperate attempt to try and make the wholly unacceptable and bad look good and enable lousy performance and lousy behaviour. It isn't good. It's bloody awful and it's a ridiculous Barnum type attempt at conning people into enablement.

Froodwithatowel · 18/07/2023 08:58

In fact all of this could be pinned down into two sentences.

"You cannot always have everything you want. Get over it."