First they came for KJK, now Helen Joyce

[Jellycats4life]

I’ve been feeling very disillusioned by leftist feminists denigrating the single issue campaigners for not being feminist enough (even if they never claimed to be feminists in the first place) and for either being right wing or aligning with the right wing. I know HJ copped a tremendous amount of flak for attending KJK’s event in Brighton (and I actually suspect she might have lost a few friends too) but now we have this.

I know HJ is economically right wing and centrist/conservative in her politics. I’m politically homeless and so couldn’t care less about anyone’s politics not aligning with my own. This purity spiral I keep seeing within left wing GC circles is so deleterious to the movement, surely?

I thought it had all died down but clearly not.

I have never heard HJ discuss her views on abortion, and even if her opinion differs to mine I seriously doubt it would impact upon my opinion of her as a GC campaigner. I think she’s one of the best voices we’ve got. Will we ever get anywhere if disagreeing with someone means you have to cast them out?

Anyway, the upshot of this is I’m interested in the journal, haha!

'I think she’s one of the best voices we’ve got'

Completely agree. Her book 'Trans' is excellent - highly readable, thoroughly researched and full of good sense. She's an excellent speaker too. Would be amazed if she is anything other than pro choice, but I don't know for sure

The problem with purity spirals is that a fact is a fact regardless of who says it.

Whilst I hear you, I also think that by castigating someone for their purity spiral you are also in a way creating a purity spiral of your own.

i have decided that, for me, I welcome all campaigners on GC issues as we share a common goal, even if our motives are different. But I feel free to criticise their stance on other issues, I just won’t let that detract from my support and gratitude for their work on preserving women’s rights and protecting children.

Spiralling is what this sort of stuff makes my eyes do.

I am bored rigid by this in-fighting. It does more harm than good in my opinion, as it's offputting to people just starting to get to grips with this issue.

What is "sex realist" feminism? Rather like "rabid wealth hoarding" socialism. As in not any kind of feminism you might recognise.

Surely sex realist feminism is feminism which recognises that biological sex exists. Has Jeni Harvey suddenly become a TRA?

I think Helen's great. I have very little time for that other person - not using her name because I can't remember how to spell it and I can't be bothered checking.

What a doofus

i predict HJ will ignore or respond gracefully

that other person will continue to look like a twerp (who doesn’t understand politics, people and the world very well)

Oh ffs. The Real Feminists are determined to do whatever they can to destroy women's rights.

It is no surprise though to see a ‘real feminist’ post such a thing.

I actually think it is better to leave that group alone and just get on with it. There will be a few of them that will be pure enough.

I wonder who will be tomorrow’s thought criminal?
I love the saying, ‘a stopped clock is right twice a day’.

It is the problem with being united around a single issue. I heard Helen Joyce talking about her economic ideology the other day and was so disappointed until I remembered that all I have in common with a lot of other people is that we agree and are campaigning on this one issue.

But the "feminists" who are trying to cancel Helen and KJK get right up my nose and I can't help feeling that they are at least a bit motivated by jealousy

Not at all surprised to see Jeni Harvey coming out like this. She's been very involved with Women's Place UK. Go figure.

She lives in Wales and I've longed to see her turn her rage on the Welsh Labour Party and Welsh government which are both welded to gender ideology. But she's Labour-right-or-wrong and so she sidesteps that issue. Haven't seen her turn out to a single protest or event here in Wales.

It's much easier to spit your bile at other women who are making things happen, isn't it, Jeni, than speak out about Welsh Labour and risking being unpopular.

I have had a look at the speakers for the first event and they seem to be a mix of UK and USA women.

I can see why the real feminists are arcing up about it. It is going to be interesting how some of those UK feminists deal with this platform. I expect it will be as we have seen though. I don’t expect to be pleasantly surprised.

Me too. Discuss the issues or don't, I don't care. Just as long as anyone who wants to, can.

It's the same kind of tedious stuff as when thread after thread gets derailed to what FWR posters are like. I don't really care what someone is like, if they have a point to make, honestly and in good faith, then play the ball, not the person.

I think Helen Joyce is magnificent. I don't care about the rest of her politics. And I am a former Labour Party member, activist, canvasser, member of my local party executive committee and a speaker at conference.

I campaigned against ID cards in 2006 and made friends across the political spectrum. We may have disagreed about just about everything else but we agreed on this one issue and that gave our campaign strength, not weakness.

Any woman who campaigns for women's rights is my sister.

And the obsession with labelling everything. If you think that biological sex is real and immutable, you can just say that. You don't need to call it "vagina-veracity views" or "crazy for chromosomes" or left-wing or right-wing. Engage with the claims themselves instead of rewording or categorising things to the point of losing all meaning.

Yep. On keeping single sex spaces single, I will stand with anyone who supports it. Doesn't mean I agree with them on other issues.

This transcends the Left/Right divide.

HJ comes across as very likeable though :)

I find the in-fighting quite bewildering. And I think calling it ‘in-fighting’ is one of those ‘this argument is toxic on both sides’ things. Really, the fighting seems to be rather one-sided, coming from a particular group doing the attacking, while the other side graciously smiles and occasionally snaps and defends themselves.

Well that's interesting. Because tweets like the one in the OP make me check what the left has achieved. And I can never see much.

Obviously we only have Conservatives for Women's word for it - and it could not be true. But they said they'd got half of elected MPs on board which I thought was quite an achievement.

Then you look at the opposition benches and all I can see is no support for Rosie Duffield or Jo Cherry. And no news from affiliated groups about what they've done. Nothing you can point to. And I'd really love to know how many politicians they think they've got on board as my worry is that they haven't or that the number is terribly small.

Many of us here know all the ins and outs but so many women don't. There's absolutely no way I could show friends of mine stuff like the tweet in the OP. It would kill the conversation and the chance I have to get them to think about signing a petition or writing to their MP.

Frankly it fills me with dread that under Labour, we could (would?) have a Parliamentary party that's not had a group that has achievements with raising the issues behind the scenes.

Yet doing it the Proper Feminist Way is The Only Way. I think it would be dense brave to trust it is.

As someone from a working class background who left school at 16 with average qualifications (never went to 6th form, let alone university) and who has never read a book on any type of theories, we need women who can speak plainly and clearly ABOUT THIS ISSUE.

I know one thing though, neither HJ or KJK would ever look down their nose at women like me.

Do you think that Helen Joyce looks down her nose at you?

Sorry, I misread your post: multi-tasking. I'm an idiot. Apologies.

No

See my apology above!