First they came for KJK, now Helen Joyce

[Jellycats4life]

I’ve been feeling very disillusioned by leftist feminists denigrating the single issue campaigners for not being feminist enough (even if they never claimed to be feminists in the first place) and for either being right wing or aligning with the right wing. I know HJ copped a tremendous amount of flak for attending KJK’s event in Brighton (and I actually suspect she might have lost a few friends too) but now we have this.

I know HJ is economically right wing and centrist/conservative in her politics. I’m politically homeless and so couldn’t care less about anyone’s politics not aligning with my own. This purity spiral I keep seeing within left wing GC circles is so deleterious to the movement, surely?

I thought it had all died down but clearly not.

I have never heard HJ discuss her views on abortion, and even if her opinion differs to mine I seriously doubt it would impact upon my opinion of her as a GC campaigner. I think she’s one of the best voices we’ve got. Will we ever get anywhere if disagreeing with someone means you have to cast them out?

Anyway, the upshot of this is I’m interested in the journal, haha!

I can still see the thread, it's one of those multiple tweets. I do wish people could learn to say what they want to say in a single tweet. Snarky I know but It brings out the worst in me.

It just comes across as jealousy that people are more popular than they are.

Absolutely it does.

I do wish people could learn to say what they want to say in a single tweet. Snarky I know but It brings out the worst in me.

Not snarky at all. Shorter tweets and posts are far more likely to be read! So often I want to shout at my screen: learn to fucking précis FFS!!!!

Précis: Here are some things I’ve imagined that Helen Joyce thinks. I’m absolutely furious about them. If only I could write a book

less than 280 chars I think

But all actual feminism is sex based that's the point. Women are oppressed by the patriarchy because of their vulnerable bodies.

Whatever she means is the new type of individualism that requires people to be grouped stereotypes. Which is really anti feminist

I particularly loathe the ones with the incredibly self-satisfied tone that go something like Okaaaay folx, buckle up, looks like yet again [sigh] we need a deep dive into why [something, could be anything] is [insert word that didn't exist a few years ago but now indicates something heinous and unforgivable]. Here we go! 1/282

Ok... looking further into this the OP tweet seems to have issue with not HJ, but the organisaion "fairer disputations" which is an organisation I've never heard of.

Looking at their web page they seem to have a range of voices discussing "sex realist feminist" some of whom are Christians and Evangelists. Nina Power seems to be one of those looking at her substack. Although Nina doesn't claim to be a feminist, rather a female philosopher going by her twitter handle.

ninapower.substack.com/

Mary Harrington also writes for them, who I admaire and often has good points to make, but I don't always agree with her.... looking at the "featured authors" section you can see the types of authors it hosts.

A bit of further digging on the website reveals It is part of the Abigail Adams institute's "The Woolstonecraft Project":

The Abigail Adams institute is a rather conservative leaning educational instituation linked to Harvard university.

The Wollstonecraft Project aims to guide, facilitate, and support scholarly engagement in questions of sexual equality and freedom, as philosophically informed by realist metaphysics, virtue-based ethics, and a Wollstonecraftian understanding of rights grounded in responsibilities.

www.abigailadamsinstitute.org/aai-wollstonecraft-project

My bold because I regocnise those as particularly religious philosphical persuits I've bolded it because looking into some of the authors reveal's it's Catholic leanings.

Faculty include:

Erika Bachiochi - Catholic
Angela Franks - Writing Fellow for Church Life Journal
Serena Sigillito- Another Caholic
Rose Elvidge - Who there is not much information about other than She works at the Cantebury institute.

Does that mean Helen Joyce is a Catholic? Or far right adjacent? No.

But it does mean, that like nearly every publication of this type, it has a particular lens. Which is Catholic, conservative, pro-nuclear family.

So, going back to the tweet in the OP, one can ask the question:

Can a catholic who opposes abortion on the basis of religion and their particular branch of "realist metaphysical", "virtue based" theist philosophy, really be a feminist? Or is there an internal contradiction between the teachings of Catholicism and the goals of feminism?

As always Twitter seems to be a terrible medium for this sort of discussion.

I’m glad you’ve mentioned all of this because I’ve followed Helen for years, before she’d written Trans, and I’ve never got the suggestion that any of her views were anything other than completely mainstream, moderate and rational. Like most people in the U.K., as you say.

So I do suspect that the tweet, which is still up (I’ll link below) is just a bad-faith swipe at Helen not being a leftie.

As Helen herself said during her debate with Julie Bindel (or if it wasn’t then, she’s definitely said it) the left are so very prone to thinking of themselves as the good guys. So is Jeni really accusing Helen of being anti-abortion because she’s one of the bad guys and simply must be (if she’s also making assumptions about Helen’s Irish Catholic background… well)?

twitter.com/gappytales/status/1610579878834831360

Précis: Here are some things I’ve imagined that Helen Joyce thinks. I’m absolutely furious about them. If only I could write a book

less than 280 chars I think

Heh. Very well done @BernardBlacksMolluscs

I particularly loathe the ones with the incredibly self-satisfied tone that go something like Okaaaay folx, buckle up, looks like yet again [sigh] we need a deep dive into why [something, could be anything] is [insert word that didn't exist a few years ago but now indicates something heinous and unforgivable]. Here we go! 1/282

We don't need a deep dive. We don't need tweets that go on and on and on and on. The pleasure of Twitter is quick takes and fast reactions. It's not meant to be a fucking lecture. If you can't boil it down to 280 characters or a two to three-tweet thread write a blog and link to it.

I've clicked on the tweet now. I think Jennifer Lahl is anti abortion so that could be what is being objected to?

I dont know who many of the individuals referred to in this thread are, but added to purity spirals, and those who think they are the ones to define what feminism is, there is also the horribly competitive world of publishing and academia.

I dont really value the idea that some women have that they will set up a group that then decides who they will give a voice to, and part of the problem is those who think I'll sign up for this or that (like all those who signed up to WPUK on a single issue and are now accepting their ideiology on other areas).

I think there is more value in a platform that provides open and shared discussion (like here).

Unfortunately the internet rather than its supposed benefit of bringing together isolated groups, seems in many instances to have increased the need of some people to be part of an even smaller group where they can claim to be the only people who really understand what is going on.

Lol, this made me snort! Reminds me of another certain feminist!

TL:DR!

I think the anti abortion slur is now the goto comment for leftist because they are saying if you in any way interact with an individual or group that is against abortion, they you too are anti abortion for even acknowledging them.

This is the standard slut tactic by the group Actual Gender Critical Left, which is now linked to WPUK, and also often try to imply it makes you anti gay rights.

Cross posted with you @Gabcsika . Thanks for digging into the organisation. I can see where the anti-abortion, pro-nuclear family jibe came from now.

But it’s still the same old argument! HJ has made it clear she’s happy to be platformed by whoever will let her write or speak. Ditto KJK. So they do, and the likes of Jeni Harvey take to Twitter and write long, tedious blogs about how awful it is/they are.

But who is actually doing the graft here and getting the word out? Who does nothing other than sit on social media and act perfomatively outraged at the conduct of others?

Funny thing is though, that I am now aware of them whereas I wasn’t before.

I am sure that I will listen simply because I want to hear wide ranging views. Even if I don’t agree with them! I want to know what they think.

Thanks real feminists!

I may bookmark this!

Agreed.
But on the flip side it's been sweet to see people like the sea woman get their comeuppance on Meghan Murphy's threads.

They are totally shooting themselves in the foot on refusing to promote their film which despite stealing all kjk s branding act doesn't feature kjk.

Meghan Murphy just saying nope unless the film makers want to come and engage with her on her platform.
The utter ejits refusing!

So funny when they get shot down!!!

Oh Louise Perry is involved too.

Apparently can sign up for the recording. I'm intrigued to hear it.

fairerdisputations.org/join/

I'm trying to work out how Dr Stock has been included in some of the tweets. Or has she just been tagged in?

They're not worth our time.
Helen Joyce is a magnificent woman, rational, informed, compassionate, funny and highly intelligent. I think what she achieved with Trans and what she's doing with Maya at Sex Matters is really making a difference.
I cant remember the exact quote but remember Helen saying about TRAs we need to go round them, not discuss the issue with them, talk to the people in power, the people that matter because there is no reasoning with activists. Same applies to some 'on our side.' I've muted quite a lot on twitter, it's better without their voices.

I have read the thread. Like the responses. But particuarly like this one. I concur 😁

I know it's like ffs we are all women and we are all getting fucked over.

Can we just deal with and sort that then go our separate ways when it's done

Why does that have to be so hard???

I've met HJ virtually and she is so sane and clever. Brilliant woman.
I donate to a woman's place (as well as LGBA and Sex Matters) monthly, should I be rerouting that money?

I am not sure what the mumsnet feminist collective think of Helen Lewis, but I borrowed an audio version of her book "Difficult Women" from the library recently.

I thought it was good and addresses the complexity of the women who fought important feminist rights issues. IMO it is worth a read.

But I agree with the general consensus that purity spirals are bad.

Anyone who tries to align HJ with the far right wing is just embarrassing and discrediting themselves.

HJ is magnificent, intelligent and above all full of humour and reasonable. You'd struggle to find a better epitome of a likeable, intelligent, confident, competent, humane woman.

That tweeter, whose tweets I've read before and thought about for a bit, will now be automatically dismissed into the bin of 'don't bother'.