Allison Bailey v Stonewall - Employment Tribunal hearing Thread 17

[ickky]

The Tribunal started on 25th April, witness testimony concluded on the 26th May. Closing arguments for council will be on the 20th June. I don't know if the existing links and pins will work. I will email nearer the time to check.

If you would like to view online you need to send a request for access.
Send an email to

[email protected]

The subject heading of the email request should read

“MEDIA OR PUBLIC ACCESS REQUEST – Case number 2202172/2020 - Ms A Bailey – 20th June 2022.

Then ask for the pin for the online access.

You will be contacted with instructions on how to observe the hearing.

When joining the live tribunal please choose a non inflammatory/offensive name, everyone can see it in the chat - This is a court room, please behave accordingly.

The court chat function is there for official court purposes, not for observers, please don't use it unless you have a technical issue.

On the first page underneath where you put your screen name, select the video and mic that are not crossed out (top option), this is the courts vid and mic.
On the next page select NONE on the drop down windows for vid and mic, these are your own video and mic.

You must be muted so as to not disturb the hearing.

There is also live tweeting from

twitter.com/tribunaltweets

Abbreviations:

AB: Allison Bailey, claimant
BC: Ben Cooper QC, barrister for AB
SW = Stonewall Equality Limited (respondent 1)
IO = Ijeoma Omambala QC, senior counsel - barrister for SW
RW = Robin White junior counsel to SW - assisting IO
GC = Garden Court Chambers Limited (respondent 2) (GCC would be a better abbreviation)
AH = Andrew Hochhauser QC, senior counsel - barrister for GC
JR = Jane Russell junior counsel to GC - assisting AH
RM= Rajiv Menon QC & SH = Stephanie Harrison QC (jointly respondent 3 along with all members of GC except AB)
EJ = Employment Judge Goodman hearing the case
Panel = any one of the three panel members (EJ and two lay members)

Thread 1 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4529887-Allison-Bailey-v-Stonewall-Employment-Tribunal-hearing?

Thread 2 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4542466-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-2

Thread 3 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4545725-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-3

Thread 4 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4546945-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-4

Thread 5 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4548160-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-5

Thread 6 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4550451-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-6

Thread 7 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4551757-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-7

Thread 8 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4552521-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-8

Thread 9 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4553181-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-9

Thread 10 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4553754-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-10

Thread 11 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4555145-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-11

Thread 12 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4555687-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-12

Thread 13 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4556235-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-13

Thread 14 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4556407-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-14

Thread 15 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4556803-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-15

Thread 16 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4557036-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-16

Allison Bailey - claimant (4-9, 11-13 May)

Witnesses for the claimant:

Dr Nicola Williams - Fair Play for Women (29 April)
Dr Judith Green - A Woman's Place (29 April)
Kate Barker - LGB Alliance (3 May)
Lisa-Marie Taylor - FiLiA (4 May)

Witnesses for the respondents:

Stephen Lue - barrister for GCC (3-4 May)
Zainab Al-Farabi - ex Stonewall (10 May)
Kirrin Medcalf - head of trans inclusion Stonewall (10 May)
Leslie Thomas - barrister at GCC (13 May)
Sanjay Sood Smith - Stonewall (16 May)
Shaan Knan - LGBT consortium - on STAG (16 May)
Rajiv Menon - joint head of chambers (16-17 May)
Maya Sikand - barrister at GCC (17-18 May)
Mia Hakl-Law - HR senior for GCC (18 May)
Judy Khan - barrister at GCC (19-20 May)
Charlie Tennent - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Luke Harvey - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Louise Hooper - Barrister at GCC (20 May)
David Renton - barrister at GCC (20 May, 25 May)
Marc Willers - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Stephen Clark - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Liz Davies - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Cathryn McGahey - Bar Council Ethics Committee's VC (24 May)
Tom Wainwright - Barrister at GCC (24 May)
Colin Cook - Head clerk at GCC (24 May)
David de Menezes - GCC, Head of Marketing (25 May)
Kathryn Cronin - barrister at GCC (25 May)
Michelle Brewer - barrister at GCC at time, now left and a judge (26 May)
Stephanie Harrison - joint head of chambers (26 May)

To Come

Closing arguments for AB, GCC, and SW (20 June)

Without having followed it all very closely, on the balance of probabilities I would be fairly confident that Stonewall tried to have an influence, and that they did have some influence, quite possibly in undisclosed phone calls.

I'd also suggest that AB might have targeted Stonewall as much to shine a light on their practices as because she thought she would win against them. The light being shone being shone on Stonewall for the benefit of the Tribunal in her case against GCC and for the benefit of the world more generally!

Wait, what, "accusing people of coercing others into criminal acts??! WTF

Yeah. That's in relation to the Morgan Page tweet. They've been saying all along that Allison was using coercing young lesbians, in the criminal sense and accusing the workshop of encouraging rape of lesbians.

Is he talking about the Cotton Ceiling Workshop?

Do GCC and Stonewall barristers deliberately misconstrue that the coercion was referring to convincing lesbians to have sex with TW?

Considering some of the conversations I've had with several detransitioned lesbians, I think criminal is apt.

It's a deliberately dishonest reference to this tweet MythicalReasonableTwitterUser:

twitter.com/BluskyeAllison/status/1175739790181974017

I wish the judge would just ask out right whether or not Stonewall had any input into the ETBB. That would be brilliant moment

Yes

They're trying to argue that 'coerce' can only ever be used linguistically in the sense that it means illegal and so AB was alleging criminal behaviour and therefore her views as expressed in that tweet are reprehensible.

I'm looking forward to BCs summing up.

As I remember it they construed 'coerce' as meant in the legal/criminal sense rather than the 'convince, persuade, manipulate' sense that Allison intended it (and most people would understand it.)

An interesting FoI request from Naomi Cunningham.

www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/training_provided_to_judges_by_s#comment-96472

SW & GCC have insisted throughout that 'coerce' can only mean 'violently rape'

How do you get lesbians to have sex with men if it isn't through coercion?

this just sounds like more of the same misogyny that doesn't see women as fully human. Sex outside your orientation, if you're a woman, isn't that big a deal.

Would they say the same about straight men? How do you get a straight man to have sex with a gay man?

That's patently ridiculous.

In fact I would say the whole point of the word 'coerce' is that it isn't violent.

Break til 12.29

I agree, @Hagiography . Coercion is usually a softly-softly approach, to break down resistance gradually, so you don't necessarily register it's being done.

‘In fact I would say the whole point of the word 'coerce' is that it isn't violent.’

I would agree.

Yeah. That's in relation to the Morgan Page tweet. They've been saying all along that Allison was using coercing young lesbians, in the criminal sense and accusing the workshop of encouraging rape of lesbians.

and
It's a deliberately dishonest reference to this tweet
twitter.com/BluskyeAllison/status/1175739790181974017

Yes, I know, but young lesbians being coerced into dating transwomen isn't a criminal act by lesbians- What AH said-
"accusing people of coercing others into criminal acts"
sounded like he's saying AB accused Morgan Page of trying to coerce males to commit criminal acts...
Once again wishing we could be recording this.

The outcome from that was wholly unsatisfactory.

hiyamaya.net/2021/10/19/gendered-intelligence-trains-judges-in-secret-i-am-going-to-court-to-try-to-break-the-secrecy/

Yes that's exactly what he's saying.

He's saying that that tweet was rightfully investigated because it was erroneously accusing MP and by association SW of encouraging others to commit criminal acts ie rape

Late to the party again. Place marking.

I don't think AH realises how condescending he can be sometimes. I don't think he means to be.