Allison Bailey v Stonewall - Employment Tribunal hearing Thread 17

[ickky]

The Tribunal started on 25th April, witness testimony concluded on the 26th May. Closing arguments for council will be on the 20th June. I don't know if the existing links and pins will work. I will email nearer the time to check.

If you would like to view online you need to send a request for access.
Send an email to

[email protected]

The subject heading of the email request should read

“MEDIA OR PUBLIC ACCESS REQUEST – Case number 2202172/2020 - Ms A Bailey – 20th June 2022.

Then ask for the pin for the online access.

You will be contacted with instructions on how to observe the hearing.

When joining the live tribunal please choose a non inflammatory/offensive name, everyone can see it in the chat - This is a court room, please behave accordingly.

The court chat function is there for official court purposes, not for observers, please don't use it unless you have a technical issue.

On the first page underneath where you put your screen name, select the video and mic that are not crossed out (top option), this is the courts vid and mic.
On the next page select NONE on the drop down windows for vid and mic, these are your own video and mic.

You must be muted so as to not disturb the hearing.

There is also live tweeting from

twitter.com/tribunaltweets

Abbreviations:

AB: Allison Bailey, claimant
BC: Ben Cooper QC, barrister for AB
SW = Stonewall Equality Limited (respondent 1)
IO = Ijeoma Omambala QC, senior counsel - barrister for SW
RW = Robin White junior counsel to SW - assisting IO
GC = Garden Court Chambers Limited (respondent 2) (GCC would be a better abbreviation)
AH = Andrew Hochhauser QC, senior counsel - barrister for GC
JR = Jane Russell junior counsel to GC - assisting AH
RM= Rajiv Menon QC & SH = Stephanie Harrison QC (jointly respondent 3 along with all members of GC except AB)
EJ = Employment Judge Goodman hearing the case
Panel = any one of the three panel members (EJ and two lay members)

Thread 1 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4529887-Allison-Bailey-v-Stonewall-Employment-Tribunal-hearing?

Thread 2 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4542466-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-2

Thread 3 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4545725-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-3

Thread 4 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4546945-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-4

Thread 5 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4548160-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-5

Thread 6 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4550451-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-6

Thread 7 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4551757-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-7

Thread 8 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4552521-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-8

Thread 9 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4553181-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-9

Thread 10 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4553754-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-10

Thread 11 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4555145-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-11

Thread 12 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4555687-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-12

Thread 13 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4556235-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-13

Thread 14 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4556407-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-14

Thread 15 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4556803-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-15

Thread 16 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4557036-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-16

Allison Bailey - claimant (4-9, 11-13 May)

Witnesses for the claimant:

Dr Nicola Williams - Fair Play for Women (29 April)
Dr Judith Green - A Woman's Place (29 April)
Kate Barker - LGB Alliance (3 May)
Lisa-Marie Taylor - FiLiA (4 May)

Witnesses for the respondents:

Stephen Lue - barrister for GCC (3-4 May)
Zainab Al-Farabi - ex Stonewall (10 May)
Kirrin Medcalf - head of trans inclusion Stonewall (10 May)
Leslie Thomas - barrister at GCC (13 May)
Sanjay Sood Smith - Stonewall (16 May)
Shaan Knan - LGBT consortium - on STAG (16 May)
Rajiv Menon - joint head of chambers (16-17 May)
Maya Sikand - barrister at GCC (17-18 May)
Mia Hakl-Law - HR senior for GCC (18 May)
Judy Khan - barrister at GCC (19-20 May)
Charlie Tennent - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Luke Harvey - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Louise Hooper - Barrister at GCC (20 May)
David Renton - barrister at GCC (20 May, 25 May)
Marc Willers - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Stephen Clark - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Liz Davies - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Cathryn McGahey - Bar Council Ethics Committee's VC (24 May)
Tom Wainwright - Barrister at GCC (24 May)
Colin Cook - Head clerk at GCC (24 May)
David de Menezes - GCC, Head of Marketing (25 May)
Kathryn Cronin - barrister at GCC (25 May)
Michelle Brewer - barrister at GCC at time, now left and a judge (26 May)
Stephanie Harrison - joint head of chambers (26 May)

To Come

Closing arguments for AB, GCC, and SW (20 June)

GCC arguing that Allison's beliefs are not protected - because they aren't limited to keeping her mouth shut.

IO did make a pigs ear of that.

I bet he has his papers over his speaker again.

SW and GGC both seem to be arguing against Allison's right to her views, rather than addressing the detriments. Or am I getting this wrong? Maybe this is all they have.

Equal Treatment Benchbook coming up again. Using it to say that Stonewall is not going beyond the law in relation to misgendering.

I do like the way he pronounces Forstater.

For flipping heck's sake! The "Equal" Treatment Benchbook has one hell of a lot to answer for. It requires forced speech. Which is most definitely not the law.

AH claiming that the Equal Treatment Bench Book is founded on the law and exists to offer guidance to judges — said very pointedly. Stonewall hasn't gone beyond the law according the the ETBB.

Who wrote the ETBB? Who advised the people who wrote the ETBB?

Is it me or is the key to being a brilliant barrister to be confident and lead the judge whilst not coming across as patronising. AH seems to verge on patronising.

I believe Ms Brewer's Gendered Intelligence had some influence.

Yes, Stonewall heavily influenced (at the very least) the ETBB. Misgendering isn't against the law unless and until it becomes harassment.

AH claiming that the Equal Treatment Bench Book is founded on the law and exists to offer guidance to judges — said very pointedly. Stonewall hasn't gone beyond the law according the the ETBB.

Who wrote the ETBB? Who advised the people who wrote the ETBB?

I don't know if it's in Judge Goodman's remit to look into this, but I hope she does. The Bench book is part of the big problem of institutional capture, it's creepy AF to see them trying to prop up their case on it.

A PP pointed out that the stonewall argument that AB's beliefs aren't covered by grainger is more like a strikeout argument. Thats a good point. I wonder why they didn't make that argument at the strike out stage? Maybe Allison's witness statement hadn't been published yet?

I think SW's strongest point is that GCC didn't generally take much notice of anything they said. I think that does cast some doubt on whether GCC's actions were really in response to SW. There's good evidence that their relationship was quite superficial. But that doesn't remove the fact that a handful of barristers, some v senior, were very keen on SW and saw Ab's criticism of them as completely beyond the pale, and yet very much did listen to what SW said.

Can Ben Copper speak about the ETBB?

I'm finding AH's arguments reasonably persuasive about GCC not actually taking instructions from SW, in terms of the evidence seen in the case and the law.

Misgendering isn't against the law unless and until it becomes harassment.

But any form of "misgendering," including acknowledging the reality of sex in general, is considered abusive, harmful misgendering by some...

Which Minister is responsible for the judiciary? I feel that person needs to be aware of how the "Equal" Treatment Benchbook is being used (almost as a statutory document) and that it therefore needs parliamentary scrutiny.

I only caught a glimpse but does BC now have a picture of a support wren? To the left, near his patio doors.

I think that's his support hawk, that he had previously.

Hopefully both birds get on well.

Or maybe his daemon

back again to the "distinction between a belief, but the objectionable expression of a belief..." In other words, we'll say what we like, and it's teeny tiny eggshells for you.

We're back to 'it's not the belief, it's the manifestation of the belief'.

GCRich I have always found AH insufferably patronising.

So if Stonewall influenced the ETBB, then GCC is using the ETBB to justify how the advice from Stonewall didn't go beyond the law - circular bloody argument!

Just what objectionable manifestations of AB's beliefs is AH on about?

That is his support hawk/falcon still I think.

AH referred to coercing someone to commit criminal acts. That misrepresentation is almost criminal in itself.