Allison Bailey v Stonewall - Employment Tribunal hearing Thread 16

[ickky]

The Tribunal started on 25th April at 10am. If you would like to view online you need to send a request for access as early as possible.

Send an email to

[email protected]

The subject heading of the email request should read

“MEDIA OR PUBLIC ACCESS REQUEST – Case number 2202172/2020 - Ms A Bailey – 25th April 2022.

Then ask for the pin for the online access.

You will be contacted with instructions on how to observe the hearing.

When joining the live tribunal please choose a non inflammatory/offensive name, everyone can see it in the chat - This is a court room, please behave accordingly.

The court chat function is there for official court purposes, not for observers, please don't use it unless you have a technical issue.

On the first page underneath where you put your screen name, select the video and mic that are not crossed out (top option), this is the courts vid and mic.
On the next page select NONE on the drop down windows for vid and mic, these are your own video and mic.

You must be muted so as to not disturb the hearing.

There is also live tweeting from

twitter.com/tribunaltweets

Abbreviations:
AB: Allison Bailey, claimant
BC: Ben Cooper QC, barrister for AB
SW = Stonewall Equality Limited (respondent 1)
IO = Ijeoma Omambala QC, senior counsel - barrister for SW
RW = Robin White junior counsel to SW - assisting IO
GC = Garden Court Chambers Limited (respondent 2) (GCC would be a better abbreviation)
AH = Andrew Hochhauser QC, senior counsel - barrister for GC
JR = Jane Russell junior counsel to GC - assisting AH
RM= Rajiv Menon QC & SH = Stephanie Harrison QC (jointly respondent 3 along with all members of GC except AB)
EJ = Employment Judge Goodman hearing the case
Panel = any one of the three panel members (EJ and two lay members)

Thread 1 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4529887-Allison-Bailey-v-Stonewall-Employment-Tribunal-hearing?

Thread 2 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4542466-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-2

Thread 3 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4545725-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-3

Thread 4 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4546945-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-4

Thread 5 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4548160-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-5

Thread 6 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4550451-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-6

Thread 7 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4551757-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-7

Thread 8 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4552521-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-8

Thread 9 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4553181-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-9

Thread 10 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4553754-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-10

Thread 11 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4555145-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-11

Thread 12 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4555687-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-12

Thread 13 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4556235-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-13

Thread 14 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4556407-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-14

Thread 15 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4556803-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-15

Allison Bailey - claimant (4-9, 11-13 May)

Witnesses for the claimant:

Dr Nicola Williams - Fair Play for Women (29 April)
Dr Judith Green - A Woman's Place (29 April)
Kate Barker - LGB Alliance (3 May)
Lisa-Marie Taylor - FiLiA (4 May)

Witnesses for the respondents:

Stephen Lue - barrister for GCC (3-4 May)
Zainab Al-Farabi - ex Stonewall (10 May)
Kirrin Medcalf - head of trans inclusion Stonewall (10 May)
Leslie Thomas - barrister at GCC (13 May)
Sanjay Sood Smith - Stonewall (16 May)
Shaan Knan - LGBT consortium - on STAG (16 May)
Rajiv Menon - joint head of chambers (16-17 May)
Maya Sikand - barrister at GCC (17-18 May)
Mia Hakl-Law - HR senior for GCC (18 May)
Judy Khan - barrister at GCC (19-20 May)
Charlie Tennent - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Luke Harvey - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Louise Hooper - Barrister at GCC (20 May)
David Renton - barrister at GCC (20 May, 25 May)
Marc Willers - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Stephen Clark - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Liz Davies - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Cathryn McGahey - Bar Council Ethics Committee's VC (24 May)
Tom Wainwright - Barrister at GCC (24 May)
Colin Cook - Head clerk at GCC (24 May)
David de Menezes - GCC, Head of Marketing (25 May)
Kathryn Cronin - barrister at GCC (25 May)
Michelle Brewer - barrister at GCC at time, now left and a judge (26 May)
Stephanie Harrison - joint head of chambers (26 May)

To Come

Closing arguments for AB, GCC, and SW (20 June)

@IloveHolby www.womensrights.network have contact details in their website. Ask for you local group there.

If U lived in a rarefied left wing bubble, how would you have come across gender ideology other than TWAT??

If I learned that somebody I admired and respected held a very different viewpoint to me, and it didn't seem like a risk to my occupation or anything else, I would talk to that person. I'd hope that's how I would learn about something that I didn't know about and perhaps come to reflect upon it.

I've had my mind changed on 2 very substantial issues in that way. Those people didn't berate or challenge me or attempt to convert me to their way of thinking: we just talked.

I wish people in AB's chambers had reflected upon their stated friendship and collegiality with AB and approached her with an open heart and mind, ready to listen.

Absolutely - try not to snore too loudly!

I'm just going to add, because I feel quite sentimental, that EJ Goodman did an amazing job under very difficult circumstances,and moreso would like to say she was an exemplary role model for decorum and civility.

What an amazing woman.

I would like to write her a card. I was awestruck by her good humour through what what was obviously a very difficult case.

I hope one day she reads these threads. No matter the decision ( and I do hope she got it) her poise as a judge was superb.

Thanks to Spotify shuffling randomly on my drive home just now, I have a new number for the musical episode.

Ben Cooper says to the witness, let's break this down...

And then En Vogue plays and the most truculent witnesses appear in shot to sing, "you're never gonna get it (my answer)"

https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxN1u6hPLAuaMXqzwNv8-WxqAS5el0jxil

Can I suggest that you wait for the judgement? When you read what's she's written, you may regret sending her a card. She's in the spotlight - there may be no more to it than that.

The judge was hardcore, I was shattered listening to it without the added pressure of having to make a judgement and chair the tribunal.

...

Managed to watch for the morning of DdM testimony. Everything failed after that - despite numerous attempts! TBH, am now quite grateful - it’s been hard enough reading these posts, let alone having the visuals and audio evidence.

One thing I’m curious about - and which I think I’ve got muddled up on.

Is it correct that this tribunal is not recorded in any way? So, no stenographer etc. No video/audio recording - even by the court? But TT have been able to post throughout? I definitely think I’ve not understood properly re this.

If, say, AB were to “win” and the other sides wanted to appeal - how do they do so if none of the witness testimony is recorded? How can they “prove” that what was said (to enable Tribunal to reach their verdict) was incorrect?

Am aware that I’m showcasing my serious lack of knowledge here!

I missed yesterday pm, partly because I lost the will to live listening to MB and partly because DC3 started a tummy bug but I’d like to add my delayed thanks to everyone on these threads, and especially @ickky. This was the only week I was able to watch, and your threads not only kept me up to speed until then, but actually if you hadn’t posted them I wouldn’t have watched at all. So thank you

And thanks also to everyone who thanked EJG and panel etc.

Anyway, thanks again. See you on the 20th

Feel strange delurking to be the last woman commenting (hope someone else comes by after!) but I finally caught up with all these after stumbling upon thread... 9, perhaps? and want to say thanks. I expect there are lots of others like me, reading behind the crest of the waves all the way. I have about 30 tabs open in relation to these threads to wade through, and my email is a little busier too. I'll be keeping a closer eye on things so I get a chance for a bit of gardening in the future - so much sunshine, seems a shame not to make the most of the weather...

Thank you for all the threads.

NOT EEYORE!

Eeyore is lovely, and would never get caught up in this nonsense.

I mean, what if it fell on him . . . ?

The poster who was talking about orange and dark chocolate biscuits - please reveal where you bought them! You've put me right in the mood for them.

Border biscuits do a delicious dark chocolate and orange biscuit @Waitwhat23, and Sainsburys definitely have them, and possibly Tesco and Adsa, too.

They are individually wrapped to you can portion them out and have just the one.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA 😂😂😂- just joking!

You will finish the entire packet of 6 in sitting and sit there were more . . . . 😉

*wish there were more. Not "sit"

Bugger you, Autocarrot

.

After a long day at work yesterday, I finally gave up trying to catch up on almost two threads in a day, last night.

I've completed the mission this morning and just wanted to add my thanks to @ickky and everyone else who has contributed.

Like many others, I'm astonished at how badly barristers cope in the witness box - with one notable exception.

I do wonder what it will cost GCC collectively and individually in terms of financial and reputational cost.

Wasn't it interesting how badly the barristers coped as witnesses? I was wondering if they were thinking 'I spend my life in court, this holds no fears for me' and then realised how very different it is once they were actually in that position. We all saw how they struggled to switch role and kept trying to ask the questions and generally grandstanding. (Except AB, of course).

Sorry if this has already been covered but does anyone know if we keep the same login details for 20th June?

The GCC witnesses all seemed to have agreed on the tactics on the bingo card and to not care whether that was obvious.

If any of them had been in Ben’s position & seen the witnesses behaving like that, surely they wouldn’t have been impressed.

In my experience when you know and understand something, it's much easier to speak coherently. Think of Boris - he can rarely string a coherent sentence together because he either doesn't know his brief or knows that what he's about to say will be inappropriate (and is often straightforward lying).
If you've spent a lifetime in the office only discussing football and Mariah Carey it must be challenging to explain how on earth Allison's views were even known about, let alone reacted to.

Allison's extreme grace under fire was brought into even sharper relief when compared to everyone called as witnesses.

And BC, watching you in action was poetry.
I hope he had a couple of g&t yesterday.

And, yes, when our self proclaimed legal 'expert' next makes an appearance, i hope to share some of my own thoughts.
They're certainly never shy about coming forward, so I'll do likewise.

I have a feeling that might not happen for a while, though.

It did occur to me that if you have a dodgy case and want a prevaricating time-wasting bully boy/girl then GCC is the chambers of choice.

Quite, Mrs O. Those of us who've done any teaching know how you need a grasp on your subject and some of us know that floundering feeling when it's not quite the grasp you thought you'd got.

None of them seemed well prepared for their appearance and I don't know whether that was down to over-inflated egos or a realisation that they were defending the indefensible and illogical. Or both. None of them emerged with any credit, that's for sure.

The GCC witnesses all seemed to have agreed on the tactics on the bingo card and to not care whether that was obvious.

Am I right in thinking that these witnesses could discuss the case before it started, but weren't allowed to once it started? Once they'd given their evidence could they begin watching? I'm just wondering if they'd chosen a strategy among them beforehand and then got to see how badly it came across. Just trying to work out whether it was an organised bingo card of can't recalls, or a total omnishambles that no one could stop.

Just catching up on the train to work. Have only been able to watch bits so I have really appreciated the commentary. I’m moved by knowing that I’ve been part of a dispersed community of women following the case as they go about their business because the rights of vulnerable women - of all women - and of children matter.

A few years ago, debating the clash of rights, DH told me I was on the wrong side of history on this. He’s long since peaked, but a personal highlight of the case for me was both of us shouting in unison at MB yesterday “NOONE IS SAYING TRANSWOMEN ARE PRIMARILY SEX OFFENDERS” or whatever it was she was straw manning. It was very romantic.

None of them seemed well prepared for their appearance and I don't know whether that was down to over-inflated egos or a realisation that they were defending the indefensible and illogical. Or both. None of them emerged with any credit, that's for sure.

Despite most of them having such glowing blurbs on the GCC site about how clever & sharp & quick-thinking & attentive to detail they were.