Maya Forstater Tribunal March 2022- Thread 4

[Whatamesssss]

Thread one, here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4498167-Maya-Forstater-hearing-starts-Monday

Thread two, here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4505825-Maya-Forstater-Tribunal-March-2022-Thread-2?pg=1

Thread three, here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4507443-Maya-Forstater-Tribunal-March-2022-Thread-3

Abbreviations:
BC = Ben Cooper QC, counsel for
MF = Maya Forstater - Claimant
AP = Anya Palmer, assisting BC
OD = Olivia Dobbie, counsel for the respondents
EJ = Employment judge, leading the panel
Panel = any one of the 3 members

CGDE (CGD Europe) – Respondent 1

CGD = Centre for Global Development – Respondent 2

LE = Luke Easley, Vice president for HR and operations at CGD, first witness for CGD
AG = Amanda Glassman, Chief Operating Officer, Senior Fellow and Board Secretary of CGD and a Trustee of CGD(Europe), second witness for CGD
MP = Mark Plant, Chief Operating Officer of CGD Europe, third witness for CGD
MA = Masood Ahmed, President of CGD and Chair of the Board of CGDE – Respondent 3, fourth witness for CGD

EM = Ellen MacKenzie, an off-stage character at CGD, involved in much that went on.

Maya's website has lots of relevant information and is collating the live tweets.
www.hiyamaya.net

twitter.com/tribunaltweets is the account to look at for the live tweets. Plus some live posting and discussion on these threads.

It is all online. If you want to watch you need to email the tribunal for a log in to [email protected]

They will send you pin number and a link to log in to the tribunal.

I think that's special pleading. Why couldn't it apply in terms of race?

It certainly could apply to race or nationality, couldn't it? Let's imagine there was considerable feeling in a professional community against - say - Russian people, and someone had a Russian flag or message in their bio, and their employer fired them because they didn't want to be 'compelled' to support Russia, or associated with anyone who does?

It's just against the law.

Exactly. Good example. You can't sack your patriotic Russian staff with Long Live Russia messages on social media, or who posted a favourable comment about Putin in the past, just because you don't want to be associated with Russia.

Or you could reverse it, and say someone had a Ukrainian flag or message in their bio.

Sorry if that sounds crass, by the way, but the point here is that public opinion can't be the measure of whether a belief has practical protection or not. It has to have practical protection in law precisely because, otherwise, employers and other stakeholders will often be swayed by public opinion in ways that lead them not to respect minority opinion and rights.

(MF's beliefs are not a minority belief, but in the context of CGD in Washington they seem to have been.)

It has to have practical protection in law precisely because, otherwise, employers and other stakeholders will often be swayed by public opinion in ways that lead them not to respect minority opinion and rights.

This is key.

'A compulsion or need to tweet.'

Killing me.

Harry Miller case - most of the tweets cited were much more blunt than this.

Was it 'unsophisticated and profane'?

Have hardly been able to log in today. Did BC nail it?

I think OD just tripped up: 'the need for management to have to resolve staff offence.'

No. There's no need to resolve staff offence. Staff offence is - sometimes - an inevitable outcome of the need for tolerance.

OD (I’m paraphrasing) Uh…I didn’t do my homework on time, sorry judge, it was long.

Looks like BC can reply to her after too.

So, Judge Glennie effectively gave permission to OD to continue and BC will also be able to comment?

That's how I understood it

OD is annoyed that EM was presented as being manipulative behind the scenes.

I am shocked, shocked at her being presented in this way.

@ShagMeRiggins

OD (I’m paraphrasing) Uh…I didn’t do my homework on time, sorry judge, it was long.

To be fair they were only submitted a few minutes before her own closing statements. She had no opportunity to read it.

OD - Ellen Mckenzie "polluted this process"

I've had a dreadul connection this morning and have had to do some actual work too

'The Iago point...'

'Tis in ourselves that we are thus or thus.'

Maybe gender identity is actually from Shakespeare.

I keep losing internet connection (thanks BT).

What did OD say about EM??!

Ellen McKenzie's absence has clearly been noted by JG!

You can't infer that EM reasons were because of the beliefs themselves"

I think the judge is hinting that if OD wants EM to be presented as uninvolved then it would have helped for EM to have given evidence.

BC: "both parties are relying on the fact that we haven't heard from EM"

Going back to when BC was pointing out that none of the witnesses would give any specifics about what ME said about Maya, who among us would be surprised if it included the T word?

oops, EM