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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Maya Forstater hearing starts Monday

999 replies

MForstater · 06/03/2022 15:28

Hi all,

Thank you so much for all your support: emotional, intellectual, financial, spiritual(!) reading the Mumsnet feminism board is where this all started for me!

The case starts tomorrow.

It is all online. If you want to watch you need to email the tribunal for a log in to [email protected]

It kicks off at 10am - the first bit will be "admin" between the judges and the lawyers working out the timings, issues and any reporting restrictions Hmm.

Once that is all sorted the judge and the panel will go away to read (probably for the rest of Monday and all of Tuesday)

I will most likely give evidence Wednesday and Thursday.

@tribunaltweets will be tweeting the whole thing (assuming they get permission from the judge)

Links to papers will go up throughout the case at www.hiyamaya.net.

Any other questions I am happy to answer them (apart from the ones where I have to say "that is for the tribunal to hear"...)

I have made a spectators guide with FAQs etc here

Lots of love

Maya

OP posts:
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5
Pluvia · 15/03/2022 15:23

Yes, it's based totally on a belief system that I bet AG had no idea of 5 or 10 years ago.

WallaceinAnderland · 15/03/2022 15:24

Are we still able to access this online. I got a reply to say Blocked Recipient address rejected: Access denied.

Anyone else?

Sillydoggy · 15/03/2022 15:24

Employment rights for zombies now!

SamphiretheStickerist · 15/03/2022 15:26

@WallaceinAnderland

Are we still able to access this online. I got a reply to say Blocked Recipient address rejected: Access denied.

Anyone else?

I think they had a lot of applicants and set a timescale to log in. Miss the slot and you are out.

I could be wrong...

WallaceinAnderland · 15/03/2022 15:28

I wonder if they normally get so many applicants.

Signalbox · 15/03/2022 15:30

There's approx. 100 people watching. I wonder if there is a limit to how many can log in?

tabbycatstripy · 15/03/2022 15:31

Agree with those who think AG really believes MF's beliefs are disgusting. She isn't pretending and this isn't pragmatism. This is like trying to persuade a Catholic bishop in 1452 that it's okay to say the world was formed out of particles of dust floating around in space. She can't compute that she is wrong. I don't know how she got here but she is here.

tabbycatstripy · 15/03/2022 15:32

She's smarter than poor Luke, though.

nauticant · 15/03/2022 15:36

Yes, she is more willing to give up ground to avoid the flogging a dead horse thing and presents with much less moral righteousness.

tabbycatstripy · 15/03/2022 15:37

In fact, I got that wrong. It's like trying to persuade them that it's okay for you to think that, rather than burn you alive.

tabbycatstripy · 15/03/2022 15:38

Judge Glennie has never had this many people in an ET.

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 15/03/2022 15:38

Agree with those who think AG really believes MF's beliefs are disgusting

a person who is disgusted by someone who doesn't share their belief that some men can transubstantiate into women

it's astonishing.

although she doesn't really believe some men are women, no one does. but she's disgusted by a person who won't pretend

tabbycatstripy · 15/03/2022 15:40

'although she doesn't really believe some men are women, no one does. but she's disgusted by a person who won't pretend.'

I don't know. I think she has genuinely shifted her understanding of the term 'woman' to 'person who thinks they're a woman'. This must have taken decades.

Manderleyagain · 15/03/2022 15:40

The first stage was to demonstrate that Maya had indeed lost her job and met the criteria of "employed" so as to be able to use the protections against unfair dismissal - she won that hearing so could proceed to the next stage.
Dolorsit. Apologies if its already been answered but my understanding is that her relationship with the company & whether that's caught by the EA has not been ascertained. The 'belief' stage was stage 1, followed by the appeal of that. This stage is about whether she is covered by the EA, and whether what she did/said (ie how she manifested her beliefs) made it legit for the company to sever the relationship given their duty to other employees & company values.

The worst outcome imo would be that she loses because the panel say the relationship is not covered by EA anyway, if that meant we didn't get proper reasoning in the judgement on her words and actions. I don't know if that's likely.

AlwaysTawnyOwl · 15/03/2022 15:41

I’ve got this message

tabbycatstripy · 15/03/2022 15:42

Even if Bill Gates himself got on the phone and said he was wearing his lingerie right there and then, and he was not going to give them another dollar unless they fired Maya, AG still wouldn't be able to produce this glassy-eyed performance unless she believed it.

PoshPyjamas · 15/03/2022 15:42

The worst outcome imo would be that she loses because the panel say the relationship is not covered by EA anyway

Oh god, that would be sooooooo frustrating!

Anactor · 15/03/2022 15:42

"This is like trying to persuade a Catholic bishop in 1452 that it's okay to say the world was formed out of particles of dust floating around in space. "

That would probably be fine - it wouldn't be a mainstream theory, but you could point to Augustine of Hippo. It was, incidentally, a Catholic priest who came up with the Big Bang theory.

So it would be even more difficult than trying to persuade a Catholic Bishop... they can't even hit the standard of tolerance and enlightenment of the medieval Catholic Church.

tabbycatstripy · 15/03/2022 15:43

'So it would be even more difficult than trying to persuade a Catholic Bishop... they can't even hit the standard of tolerance and enlightenment of the medieval Catholic Church.'

They are certainly coming across that way.

WeBuiltCisCityOnSexistRoles · 15/03/2022 15:46

I can't watch so just want to say thank you to everyone taking the time to update this thread. Sounds as though BC is doing an outstanding job. How good is it to hear the details really drilled down into, in public, instead of all the fucking no debate and silencing and but transphobia?!

It is fucking amazing but @MForstater it's shit you have actually had to go through all this to get us here. Can't thank you enough.

Pluvia · 15/03/2022 15:48

How much of CGD's money comes from Gates? Is this all a virtue-signalling performance for the funders?

WeBuiltCisCityOnSexistRoles · 15/03/2022 15:49

Oh I lost all my italics and formatting, I was a bit over excited in addition to not feeling very well Blush

I really hope you are experiencing a strong sense of vindication Maya as you fucking deserve it.

turbonerd · 15/03/2022 15:49

I know the thread has moved on, but I like Luke Easly’s bit about having to believe something sincerely for it to be manifest reality: it means nothing anyone ever say or do will ever be transphobic ever again, because it all hinges on the Sincerity of the person who is transgender.

So if someone falls foul of misgendering in the pronoun-war or an impostor in the changing rooms they are NOT transphobic, but the transgender person is not sincere enough in there own beliefs as evidenced by someone noticing the discrepancy.

It is also a bit depressing to have to play mind games like that, admittedly.

Pluvia · 15/03/2022 15:50

BC just accused AG of trying to 'finesse a lie' and suggested that when he stated that something was true it would look better if she just agreed with him.

SigourneyHoward · 15/03/2022 15:51

Love this line from BC just now

" you are sounding often as if you are trying to finesse a lie"