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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Maya Forstater hearing starts Monday

999 replies

MForstater · 06/03/2022 15:28

Hi all,

Thank you so much for all your support: emotional, intellectual, financial, spiritual(!) reading the Mumsnet feminism board is where this all started for me!

The case starts tomorrow.

It is all online. If you want to watch you need to email the tribunal for a log in to [email protected]

It kicks off at 10am - the first bit will be "admin" between the judges and the lawyers working out the timings, issues and any reporting restrictions Hmm.

Once that is all sorted the judge and the panel will go away to read (probably for the rest of Monday and all of Tuesday)

I will most likely give evidence Wednesday and Thursday.

@tribunaltweets will be tweeting the whole thing (assuming they get permission from the judge)

Links to papers will go up throughout the case at www.hiyamaya.net.

Any other questions I am happy to answer them (apart from the ones where I have to say "that is for the tribunal to hear"...)

I have made a spectators guide with FAQs etc here

Lots of love

Maya

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
yourhairiswinterfire · 15/03/2022 15:02

BC: There is a disagreement about what the effect of the correspondence was.
BC: However you say claimant took down tweets about people's genitals that were offensive. This wasn't true was it.
AG: was an error on my part.

BC: You thought it OK to make that statment to someone in claimant's network, without checking facts?
AG: I did look but could not find, did not intend to misrepresent, this is someone in my network too

AG: I was angry and should not have responded, lesson learned.

Hmm
Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/03/2022 15:02

Could they have settled out of court, or whatever they call it for this kind of dispute? Or is that not an option?

That's what I was thinking.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 15/03/2022 15:02

@Datun

Was there an alternative for CDG not to have gone to a tribunal at all? Having their dirty linen aired in public like this looks bad.

Could they have settled out of court, or whatever they call it for this kind of dispute? Or is that not an option?

They're just making themselves look dodgy.

They could have settled, bought MF off and requested a NDA?
nauticant · 15/03/2022 15:03

To be less cryptic, he's exploring how viewing Maya's beliefs is bigoted and transphobic reflected CGD's culture, and the was maintained, by many and including by AG, after the victory in the EAT.

Signalbox · 15/03/2022 15:04

Could they have settled out of court, or whatever they call it for this kind of dispute? Or is that not an option?

I wondered this. I imagine there would be an option to settle (as it is a civil case). But it might involve large sums of money (on their side) or agreements not to speak about it publicly (on Maya's side) and those things are difficult to settle on.

nauticant · 15/03/2022 15:04

BC: You do think that Maya's beliefs are not worthy of respect in a democratic society.
AG: Yes.

Mollyollydolly · 15/03/2022 15:05

He's good isn't he, she's a slippery character.

Pluvia · 15/03/2022 15:06

Oh, wow: the internal response to the first tribunal (the one where the judge found GC views incompatible with human dignity) is very revealing. Ben's asking whether she believes GC beliefs are worthy of respect in a democratic society. She stands by her public statement to Pink News — that she thinks GC believes aren't worthy of respect in a democratic society. She's now trying to make distinctions between the belief and the expression of belief.

mateysmum · 15/03/2022 15:06

"BC: You thought it OK to make that statment to someone in claimant's network, without checking facts?
AG: I did look but could not find, did not intend to misrepresent, this is someone in my network too

AG: I was angry and should not have responded, lesson learned."

Rough translation. I made that up (aka I lied) but it's OK, because I'm morally right.

nauticant · 15/03/2022 15:06

I don't think they could have settled because their entire organisation was baying for Maya's blood and to have settled would have meant them being on the wrong side of history. To be moral pure was the only game to win.

Artichokeleaves · 15/03/2022 15:07

@Pluvia

Oh, wow: the internal response to the first tribunal (the one where the judge found GC views incompatible with human dignity) is very revealing. Ben's asking whether she believes GC beliefs are worthy of respect in a democratic society. She stands by her public statement to Pink News — that she thinks GC believes aren't worthy of respect in a democratic society. She's now trying to make distinctions between the belief and the expression of belief.
So we're back to it being her problem with religious intolerance.

Which is tough. Other people do not have to enact beliefs that they do not hold or agree with. Get over it.

JackieWeaversZoomAc · 15/03/2022 15:09

AG has just testified she thought Maya was transphobic & bigoted - it wasn't the tone/language, but it was Maya's beliefs that was the issue.

nauticant · 15/03/2022 15:09

Well, at least she isn't shilly-shallying around. She believes GC beliefs are bigoted and transphobic, the EAT decision is irrelevant, and it's a natural inference that her decision-making was based on her fixed view.

Helleofabore · 15/03/2022 15:10

Are we going to get an example of how to have the discussion where we cannot be labelled as bigots from this witness?

Tessa84 · 15/03/2022 15:11

None else has the impression at AG does not believe what she is saying? But now too late to back pedal...

InvisibleDragon · 15/03/2022 15:11

BC: Your personal position and the institutional position, is that the belief - not the expression - is NWORIADS and against others' dignity
AG: yes
BC: You have not changed your view, always your view
AG: yes

This seems an important point.

Sillydoggy · 15/03/2022 15:12

They don't see this as airing their dirty linen though. They see this as virtue signalling of the highest degree. Standing up as knights in shining armour on a holy quest against the evil bigots. They also can't understand how anyone would not agree with them that you have to get rid of people with the wrong beliefs. They are not seeing what we are seeing in this testimony I suspect.

Helleofabore · 15/03/2022 15:12

No.... just the usual. You can talk around the issue without naming the issue, without being clear on the needs so no one really quite knows what the discussion is about and what women need.

A bit like Starmer saying he agreed with protecting 'safe spaces'.

waffle.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/03/2022 15:12

They don't seem to understand why they lost the appeal.

Helleofabore · 15/03/2022 15:13

They see this as virtue signalling of the highest degree. Standing up as knights in shining armour on a holy quest against the evil bigots.

They are coming across as inept and arrogant.

Pluvia · 15/03/2022 15:14

BC: What you're saying is she (MF) can engage in discussion on gender issues as long as she doesn't express the beliefs she holds...

AG comes back with some fudge. But BC's nailed it, surely? MF has the right to express her beliefs.

Artichokeleaves · 15/03/2022 15:15

@Helleofabore

They see this as virtue signalling of the highest degree. Standing up as knights in shining armour on a holy quest against the evil bigots.

They are coming across as inept and arrogant.

And as religious extremist zealots.

Essentially unbelievers shall not be suffered to be among us.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 15/03/2022 15:17

@Ereshkigalangcleg

They don't seem to understand why they lost the appeal.
Well, they have employees who seem to think anything without a gender identity is a corpse, so it's not surprising they're struggling with employment law.
Mollyollydolly · 15/03/2022 15:21

It really is a religion.

VestofAbsurdity · 15/03/2022 15:23

AG believes in totalitarian thought control and compelled speech and behaviour, McCarthyism on steroids.

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