Maya Forstater's appeal skeleton

[Mollyollydolly]

Saw this on twitter and thought it deserved a thread to itself.

As Jason Braler (employment lawyer) says on twitter "It's more a thesis than a traditional skeleton, but it certainly drives home the points from every conceivable angle.
It may also be the only ever EAT skeleton to have 4 references to Orwell"

hiyamaya.files.wordpress.com/2021/04/forstater-eat-claimant-skeleton-argument-plus-low-res-pages-1-50.pdf

Here is the submission from the EHRC. Only short - well worth a read.

hiyamaya.files.wordpress.com/2021/04/forstater-submissions-ehrc-final-amended.pdf

Gosh - 'whether or not we give a judgement on the day remains to be seen'.

It would have to be VERY clear cut to give a judgement on the day.

Who's up tomorrow?

the IOC skelton

The original EJ in this case has been promoted to Senior Circuit Judge of the Employment Appeal Tribunal

He used to be a member of Devereux Chambers, coincidently so did Jolyon maugham.

Original judge needs to get retraining.

Terrible piece in the Indy (not surprising giving the authors) totally misrepresenting the case (which is surprising as I think one of the writers identifies as a lawyer?)

archive.li/IDv8x

Detraining would suffice...

@PronounssheRa

The original EJ in this case has been promoted to Senior Circuit Judge of the Employment Appeal Tribunal

He used to be a member of Devereux Chambers, coincidently so did Jolyon maugham.

Ohh and hmmmn....

Terrible piece in the Indy (not surprising giving the authors) totally misrepresenting the case (which is surprising as I think one of the writers identifies as a lawyer?)

They both have claim to this although Robin White is also a barrister, "practising in all aspects of employment and discrimination law."

Molly Mulready is involved in managing Jolyon Maugham/Good Law Project's 'Trans Defence Fund' and also challenges to the Bell vs Tavistock Judicial Review findings.

Tweets keep referring to 'C' - is that Maya?

Yes - I think 'C' = claimant?

Oh yes it's "claimant" in the original hearing, I've got it now!

White and Mulready
(extract)
"JK Rowling later tweeted that Forstater had been forced out of her job for “stating that sex is real”. We don’t agree. Forstater claims the right to knowingly cause pain, and not be required to respect the true identity of a trans woman. Take a moment to imagine being a trans person and having to go to work every day with someone who insists on using your previous name and pronouns. It often takes a trans person many years to overcome the dread and fear of being rejected by family and friends, mocked in the street and discriminated against at work. And now to find that every day, when they go to work, someone can reject their identity in the most fundamentally abusive terms. It is unthinkable. "

Maya Forstater
"The most critical places where the surpression of the ability to speak truthfully and use ordinary words to talk about sex is when people’s jobs involve the safeguarding of children and vulnerable people, and establishing and implementing policies for their protection."

What should be unthinkable is the prioritisation of adult male feelings/demands of identity validation over the welfare and Safeguarding of children.

So the judge has suggested that a decision tomorrow is a possibility:

J: Adjourning until 10.30 tomorrow morning. "Whether or not we give a judgment on the day remains to be seen."

That doesn't sound good for Maya's opponents. That's basically "I think I've heard enough".

I think C is maya, ie the claimant? Sometimes they use A which I think is also maya - appellant?

The EHRC submission is really interesting. So the EA itself states that there is a religious belief in the immutability of sex and that's a protected belief! Also important that Ehrc agree with maya's team's understanding of law on sex & gender. So I guess that's their official position now. The law says sex is biological and binary.

What an awful fearmongering hyperbolic piece of codswallop that Indy article was 😡

I genuinely think the first judge just bottled it. He was too fearful of agreeing and so had to tick one of the 5 tests as not applying

It'd be interesting to see what the ET judge's social circles are like. Perhaps all their friends and relatives are "TWAW no debate" and it was easier to pass the tough decision upwards. There is so much that obviously doesn't make sense in the determination even to a lay person.

There is so much that obviously doesn't make sense in the determination even to a lay person.

Having followed the live tweets of the case, it just didn't fit at all with what was heard in court either. So much stuff just glossed over, and tiny details picked upon.

What a silly little thread!

What an awful fearmongering hyperbolic piece of codswallop that Indy article was

The author turns up on here sometimes. I think they detached themselves from reality quite a long time ago.

Well, one of the authors of a piece written for the Independent has knowingly caused FWR posters pain. They said that women using the dictionary definition of woman were analogous to Nazis. Why is that somehow not 'unthinkable'? My identity is very much not Nazi yet that got deliberately trampled over.

What part of Maya's case says that she would 'insist on using previous names and pronouns' of colleagues? It quite clearly... says the opposite?

That indy article is terrible. If you have to lie and exaggerate you really have lost it.

Forstater claims the right to knowingly cause pain, and not be required to respect the true identity of a trans woman.

They state this whilst simultaneously denying my ‘true identity’ material reality of womanhood as an adult human female.

@R0wantrees

White and Mulready (extract) "JK Rowling later tweeted that Forstater had been forced out of her job for “stating that sex is real”. We don’t agree. Forstater claims the right to knowingly cause pain, and not be required to respect the true identity of a trans woman. Take a moment to imagine being a trans person and having to go to work every day with someone who insists on using your previous name and pronouns. It often takes a trans person many years to overcome the dread and fear of being rejected by family and friends, mocked in the street and discriminated against at work. And now to find that every day, when they go to work, someone can reject their identity in the most fundamentally abusive terms. It is unthinkable. "

Maya Forstater
"The most critical places where the surpression of the ability to speak truthfully and use ordinary words to talk about sex is when people’s jobs involve the safeguarding of children and vulnerable people, and establishing and implementing policies for their protection."

What should be unthinkable is the prioritisation of adult male feelings/demands of identity validation over the welfare and Safeguarding of children.

This 👆 100%