Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Maya Forstater's appeal skeleton

999 replies

Mollyollydolly · 25/04/2021 13:21

Saw this on twitter and thought it deserved a thread to itself.

As Jason Braler (employment lawyer) says on twitter "It's more a thesis than a traditional skeleton, but it certainly drives home the points from every conceivable angle.
It may also be the only ever EAT skeleton to have 4 references to Orwell"

hiyamaya.files.wordpress.com/2021/04/forstater-eat-claimant-skeleton-argument-plus-low-res-pages-1-50.pdf

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
Thecatonthemat · 26/04/2021 10:51

Excellent and completely readable summary. Thank you for posting here. Is the hearing this week or has it been Postponed? You have argued your case very well and are standing up for all of us. Rooting for you Maya.

Terranean · 26/04/2021 10:55

Thanks Maya. I wish I could donate more for your legal bill. Rooting for you!

Good luck Flowers

Pota2 · 26/04/2021 11:14

I wonder if the tribunal judge deliberately gave a judgment that would be appealed. If he’d found in Maya’s favour at first instance, the case wouldn’t have made as many waves and wouldn’t have set a precedent. Even if it was unintentional, if Maya wins, the tribunal judge will have advanced the cause hugely.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/04/2021 11:16

Excellent and completely readable summary. Thank you for posting here. Is the hearing this week or has it been Postponed? You have argued your case very well and are standing up for all of us. Rooting for you Maya.

It's tomorrow I think.

highame · 26/04/2021 13:33

That definition is neither limited to people with a GRC, nor as broad as self-identified ‘gender identity’. It is focused on the ‘process’ of gender reassignment, the typical stages of which are described by Lord Nicholls in Bellinger (§§7-9). The definition encompasses people at all stages of that process, including those proposing to undergo gender reassignment who have not yet commenced the process. Consequently, it is difficult to draw ‘the line marking transition to the other [gender]’ and discrimination law must take account of the
difficulties and sensitivities involved not only for the person undergoing gender reassignment but also their colleagues and employer I think if ever we wanted to pin point exactly where the fog lies, it's here and it needs to be made clear, otherwise we have self-id anyway
I was also staggered that the Tribunal accepted ‘Equal Treatment Bench Book' and ‘Yogyakarta Principles’ when neither are law???

If she doesn't win her appeal or at least prompt further training of ET's then I will be amazed

RedDogsBeg · 26/04/2021 13:51

I'm guessing on all fours is a legal jargon term, can we have a non legal speak translation of it please?

Pota2 · 26/04/2021 13:55

A case is on all fours with another when it has substantively similar facts and raises the same legal issues.

RedDogsBeg · 26/04/2021 14:04

Thanks Pota2, I surmised it was a positive but was interested to know the exact definition.

Manderleyagain · 26/04/2021 14:50

I really wish you luck maya. I hope it goes your way, not just for the obvious reasons about protecting our right to talk clearly about this stuff, but also because the way the original judgement was written has led to you being traduced all over the Internet with all kinds of falsehoods about what you did at work.

I read pretty much the whole thing. Really interesting and the references were a gold mine. One v strong point is that the judge in the Miller case said that miller's speech about the same proposed law changes attracts very strong article 10 rights. If that's the case how can it be unacceptable in a democracy?

I really want to know what ehrc will argue now that they are intervening. Why is that so late in the day? They have time to do that but not submit evidence to the parliamentary enquiry into the gra?

highame · 26/04/2021 15:29

The EHRC seem to be in a right mess. They probably have to intervene because they have to defend themselves. I wonder if they will do a better job than other Government organisations have done (ONS for e.g.)

Manderleyagain · 26/04/2021 15:43

Yes maybe. They are in a mess yes. Well, I'm sure all will come clear when I tune in to the live tweeting.

Manderleyagain · 26/04/2021 15:44

@Pota2

A case is on all fours with another when it has substantively similar facts and raises the same legal issues.
That's a v weird phrase. Wonder what the origin is?
Hotcuppatea · 26/04/2021 15:47

Just jumping on here to say thank you to @MForstater 🙏 I greatly admire your resilience, integrity and courage. I wish you all the luck in the world.

Shizuku · 26/04/2021 16:37

It opens with "Is a belief that biological sex is real..."

You're off to a pretty bad start there - I have never met a trans person who says that sex isn't real.

Here's Katy Montgomerie - a noted trans activist. The very first line of this essay is "Sex is real".

katymontgomerie.medium.com/why-what-jk-rowling-said-is-transphobic-42081477afa1

RedDogsBeg · 26/04/2021 16:38

I've read the skeleton, won't say I understand all of it, but from a non legal person it seems to be a forensic take down of what the Judge at the Employment Tribunal did, said and the judgement passed there.

I am sorely tempted to copy some of the paragraphs from there to paste on here when we have the usual misrepresentations of the Law, the Equality Act and the GRA.

NecessaryScene1 · 26/04/2021 16:42

It opens with "Is a belief that biological sex is real..."

Oh that's just fucking hilarious. Can't even bring themselves to quote the entire first clause, let alone the entire sentence.

Grin

Is a belief that biological sex is real, important, immutable and not to be conflated with gender identity so beyond the pale that it is ‘not worthy of respect in a democratic society’?

Pota2 · 26/04/2021 16:43

[quote Shizuku]It opens with "Is a belief that biological sex is real..."

You're off to a pretty bad start there - I have never met a trans person who says that sex isn't real.

Here's Katy Montgomerie - a noted trans activist. The very first line of this essay is "Sex is real".

katymontgomerie.medium.com/why-what-jk-rowling-said-is-transphobic-42081477afa1[/quote]
Yeah some of them say that and then go on to say a load of stuff that completely contradicts that statement. There’s also PLENTY who say it’s not real or that there are 70 different sexes, that sex is a spectrum, that there are pink and blue brains in the wrong bodies etc.

So don’t come with that argument because if they believed sex was real, that would be the end of the conversation. If sex is real, someone born male cannot be female.

AaronStampler · 26/04/2021 16:47

On the meaning of "on all fours" itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003944.html

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/04/2021 16:48

I'm guessing on all fours is a legal jargon term, can we have a non legal speak translation of it please?

Where is the all fours phrase mentioned, I maybe being a bit thick or unobservant?

yourhairiswinterfire · 26/04/2021 17:08

Where is the all fours phrase mentioned, I maybe being a bit thick or unobservant?

51.2. As it happens, the Claimant’s belief is in fact on all fours with English law, in that in English law (i) sex is a biological characteristic fixed at birth; and (ii) gender identity is an important aspect of a person’s identity that is worthy of protection, but this is different from sex such that its recognition in law requires careful definition and has limits, in particular in order to accommodate the rights of others (see also generally in support of this proposition: The Forstater Employment Tribunal judgment: a critical appraisal in light of Miller, UK Labour Law Blog, 19 February 2020, K Monaghan).

58. In the final analysis, the judgment of Julian Knowles J in R (Miller) provides the complete answer in this appeal. The Claimant’s beliefs are on all fours with those in issue in Miller (§§19, 240-250, 265-266 & 280 per Julian Knowles J). As already noted43, the fifth Grainger criterion applies equally as a threshold criterion for any protection under both Articles 9 and 10, as well as under EqA10, s10. Therefore, if the Tribunal were right in this case, the expressions of those beliefs in Miller would not have attracted any protection under Article 10. Not only is there no hint that those views and their expression fall short of the (low) threshold for being worthy of respect in a democratic society, but the judgment of Julian Knowles J also gives ringing emphasis to the ‘strong’ protection required for such views as an important and respectable perspective in the ongoing contemporary debate about sex and gender, even if they are expressed in a way that is ‘opaque, profane, or unsophisticated’ (§§251-252, 276, 280-281 & 286 per Julian Knowles J; see also The Forstater Employment Tribunal judgment: a critical appraisal in light of Miller, K Monaghan, op. cit.)

72. In fact, as noted in paragraph 53 above, although this is not the relevant test, the Claimant’s beliefs are actually on all fours with English law. It is all the more remarkable, then, that the Tribunal should have found them to be not worthy of respect in a democratic society. As K Monaghan notes in The Forstater Employment Tribunal judgment: a critical appraisal in light of Miller (op. cit.):
‘It is somewhat surprising – and bold – for an ET to conclude that a “view” held by the senior courts and reflected in judgments spanning 40 years [is] not worthy of respect in a democratic society, not compatible with human dignity and conflict[s] with the fundamental rights of others.’

Chrysanthemum5 · 26/04/2021 17:09

What is a skeleton? Is it a legal thing?

Maya - I dug for your cause, and this has reminded me to go off and dig some more

adviceseekingnamechanger · 26/04/2021 17:18

Wish you so much luck and strength for tomorrow Maya. I know you didn't ask for any of this and I think what you're doing is incredibly important and brave. Behind you all the way 💪🏽💪🏽💪🏽

NecessaryScene1 · 26/04/2021 17:20

What's the opposite of "on all fours"? I'm not quite visualising the metaphor.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/04/2021 17:21

Thank you, yourhairiswinterfire!

PopperUppleton · 26/04/2021 17:32

Oh that deadlift world record holder is a nice looking fella woman, isn't he she? I don't think I've seen a picture before although I am aware of the record attempt Wink What a fab smile

Swipe left for the next trending thread