So, the sex "work" "debate"

[FizzyDizzy121]

Having looked through a lot of older threads here, I'm asking for some help.

Do you have a DP or family member that you fundamentally disagree with on a topic as black and white (to me) as sex "work"?

In my younger years, I was very much in favour of choice feminism, including in areas such as prostitution. I believed that the pushback was motivated by our issues around sex and that if a woman (usually) wants to run a business that way, supply and demand right? I did argue for better protections, H&S involvement etc.

Now, my whole approach changed a few years back. Buying consent makes me very, very uneasy and I would argue is a form of coercion/distress rather than freely given. Men (usually) who "visit" prostitutes are having sex with someone they KNOW wouldn't have sex with them if there wasnt money involved which is dodgy on so many grounds.
And all that is before we get to the amount of assaults, trafficking etc involved.

My DP is pretty left leaning (as am I) and views all work as unjust. Humans shouldn't have to be coerced to do labour in order to pay for essentials like shelter or food. And he sees sex "work" as within this bracket. Its exploitation but not any different than a retail worker for example. He says he'd be happy for his relative to be involved in sex "work", he argues the money changing hands is not buying the woman but the labour of the woman (I.e. the sex) for a set amount of time.

How do you respond to such thinking? Does it impact show you think of the other person?

Any thoughts/comments gratefully received

"UN is campaigning for a global minimum marriage age of 18."

I hope they do.
It varies between state what is the age of consent. My friend got married when she was sixteen (her husband was 18) and still in high school .
Their marriage lasted for awhile but they later got divorced.

I assume you're from USA blueberries?

UK age of consent is 16 fyi so we are out of step with UN. Can also marry at 16 with parental consent.

I can't imagine consent being 18 tbh. Cultural norms and all that. The last change to age was to normalise for gay males, reducing it to same as het people ie 16.

There are different ages if one of the people is in a of position of influence etc eg teachers.

Still not sure how this age of consent thing suddenly came into the thread though!

Only thing I can think is that it was in defence of the aid workers paying for sex/ saying sex acts in return for food?

@nicegerbil The aid workers said most of the sex-for-food-or-medicine-or-even-scarce-drinking-water was a fair transaction because it involved those over the age of consent.

@CaraDuneRedux I wasn't saying 'age of consent' was any excuse, but pointing out in any case it is a meaningless phrase. I think the 18, probably with a Juliet clause, seems fine.

The differing consent ages in parts of the States means, I noticed, that the woman accusing the repulsive prince and the perverts would have a peculiar legal case. Whatever happened in various countries she flew to, would change in mid air from legally over to under consent age. Unless she carried her own State's age with her? Or the home country or home State of whichever man was involved?

An Englishman could expect an age of consent of 16. But in New York State, it is 21. So at 17 she was under age to a New York man, over age to an English man, and..........what? in whatever was her own home State.

I think a rock n roll star (Gerry lee lewis?) came to England with his perfectly legally married wife, aged 15 (?) but had married when she was 13, and it would have been legal to marry at 12?? There was some sophistry of keeping her on a boat moored off shore, for that reason.

'@nicegerbil The aid workers said most of the sex-for-food-or-medicine-or-even-scarce-drinking-water was a fair transaction because it involved those over the age of consent.'

I don't remember that? Do you have any links?

Jerry Lee Lewis married his cousin didn't he?

Wiki says this
'His third marriage was to 13-year-old Myra Gale Brown, his first cousin once removed, on December 12, 1957.[58] However, his divorce from Jane Mitchum was not finalized before the ceremony took place, so he remarried Brown on June 4, 1958.[59] In 1970, Brown filed for divorce on the grounds of adultery and abuse,[59] charging that she had been "subject to every type of physical and mental abuse imaginable.'

Again. Not sure what your point is?

We're talking about aid workers. Fucking the desperate people they were supposed to be helping.

I'm not a fan of cultural relativism. To be honest.

I'm not sure what your point is. Are you defending the aid workers? On the basis that who knows what the age of consent is in different countries, and the women or girls agreed so it's ok?

I'm not following you.

@NiceGerbil

I assume you're from USA blueberries?

UK age of consent is 16 fyi so we are out of step with UN. Can also marry at 16 with parental consent.

I can't imagine consent being 18 tbh. Cultural norms and all that. The last change to age was to normalise for gay males, reducing it to same as het people ie 16.

16 year olds don't need parental consent to get married in Scotland.

I can't see the age being increased. 16 feels right.

I mentioned un peacekeepers as well earlier. People who are there to help.

Wiki- have a read.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sexual_abuse_by_UN_peacekeepers

I always remember this report.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.theglobeandmail.com/amp/news/world/un-peacekeepers-sexually-abused-98-girls-in-central-african-republic-group-says/article29469521/

'The group said a delegation from the U.N. peacekeeping mission on Saturday met local leaders and victims who alleged that troops from France and Gabon had sexually abused girls. Some victims left the area because they were stigmatized by the community, it said.

During the delegation's visit, AIDS-Free World said the three girls reported being tied up inside a camp by a French military commander. After having sex with the dog, the group said, each girl was given 5,000 Central African Francs, or about $9.'

Yay! Doubt they have an age of consent for sex with dogs. And, cash! Win win isn't it.

Sorry about Scotland there misinformation.

Admit I don't know about NI either.

I can't see our age of consent changing, no.

It's older to sell sex though, 18. Although the lib Dems did have a conference motion to reduce that a few years back

@NiceGerbil I remember reading about some of the overseas aid stuff. I didn't know about Plan, as mentioned on this thread. It hurts.

For heaven's sake of course I'm not saying aid workers should expect sex, from anyone at all. And of course I'm not saying men should rush to wherever there is a low age of consent and buy sex, with food, money or a wedding ring.

(Or the Taliban style deeply religious marriage n divorce packages. Clerics arrange it so you rape the girl for the hour she is your lawfully wedded wife, to avoid adultery which would be an offence. But, if she gets pregnant, she will be a divorced woman or, having no paperwork, still a single woman. She can then be forced, aged perhaps ten, to go through with the pregnancy and childbirth and wean the infant, then there is all the fun of the fair when the clerics will ensure she is stoned to death as an adulteress. Western countries are not quite so deeply religious now, but they used to have lots of religiously approved punishments for being a woman, too. Clerics loved it. Witch burning was popular. Ducking and drowning too,)

The deeply religious countries have undue control by clerics of whatever religion is prevalent. That's why I welcome the idea of an international age of 18 with possible Juliet clause

And if the Scots want 16, and Afghanistan wants 9, and Sodom wants 12, and Gomorrah wants 3, I don't care much what they want. Its time for a whole lot of international law. For the planet and for the people, especially the women and children.

(I do hope you don't interpret this post as evidence I must be in favour of paedophiles or clerics or killing or harming women.)

Good news. Plan have (since I was there and no doubt in response to the scandals the sector was hit with) done this:

plan-international.org/news/2018-02-21-our-commitment-stamp-out-abuse-and-exploitation
We have strengthened our Code of Conduct, specifically to prohibit staff from exchanging money, employment, goods or services for sex, and to outlaw any other forms of humiliating, degrading, or exploitative behaviour.

StamfordHill

You are the exact type of man that terrifies me the most. Not the one lurking in ginnels or following you home at night. You’re the type in the good job, with the nice family, says the right things at dinner parties, donates money to charities but down in your rotten core is a deep hatred of women. We’re nothing to you. We are only worth what we can offer you to be be used and disposed of.

You are honestly repugnant. I hope one day the women in your life find out what a cretinous little toad you are.

Why idiotic @StamfordHill?

We are all entitled to our views. Granted, I personally wouldn’t have been as sweary
But the idea that you would be happy to ask a woman to perform a sexual act in a back alley for your pleasure all because you can’t bear to just give that money to someone in need is abject.

And I agree too that, unfortunately many men look nice, kind etc... from the outside whilst having views that are frankly disgusting. And that they. Would quickly fall from their pedestal if those view were actually expressed as clearly.

Btw, women as a group are still subject to regular abuse.
Just look at how many women are raped, subject to sexual assault, abuse, domestic violence and death from a man’s hands.

This is impact ALL women, even those very close to you.

So you could argue that actually there are very good reasons that women, as a group, react so strongly to what they see as abject comments. That’s the legacy for men of being the privileged group who benefitted from their power over a less privileged group (like women but also applies to black people etc.....)

@Meuniere

Why idiotic *@StamfordHill*?

We are all entitled to our views. Granted, I personally wouldn’t have been as sweary
But the idea that you would be happy to ask a woman to perform a sexual act in a back alley for your pleasure all because you can’t bear to just give that money to someone in need is abject.

And I agree too that, unfortunately many men look nice, kind etc... from the outside whilst having views that are frankly disgusting. And that they. Would quickly fall from their pedestal if those view were actually expressed as clearly.

I didn’t swear

StamfordHill

“ I'm truly sorry for whatever abuse you must have gone through in your life, that you have such a vile outlook of humanity .”

There is no more vile an outlook on humanity than looking into the eyes of a vulnerable woman and calculating how that vulnerability can benefit you by getting her to suck your dick.

Your posts turned my stomach. Show what you’ve written to your wife/ mum/ daughter if you think my response is the problem.

Hi, sex worker here.

I think there are positives and negatives. Workers in Manchester don’t get anything for their first 30 minute booking every shift. I wish they would make it more controlled so it’s healthier and better for everyone. Sandys Superstars was shut down - camera everywhere, men had to shower and it was safe for everyone (google the establishment). Yet other s**t holes are open.

The job isn’t for everyone. It varies from
countries and many women are abused.

What’s the alternative - not offer a service to men who don’t have partners and they have to chase skirt? Or what about women who like the job? Working at my office job I get treated like pants

England has an age of consent of 16 as well and I'm ok with that. Because it's part of my culture and it's normal to me.

18 for prostition though.

And the age of consent is irrelevant when men working in jobs where they are supposed to help are sexually exploiting those they are sent to help. Of course fucking a 12 yo is particularly awful but it's not ok to tell an 18 yo they need to suck your cock if they want to eat, either. The StamfordHill approach to charity, if you will. Not ok.

@blindinglyobviouslight

It sounds to me that you have no practical knowledge of what prostitution involves, only what you have read

What do you mean, only what you have read? You mean peer-reviewed research and first hand former accounts from former prostitutes?
They don't count?

Nope we don’t count Everyone has to think the same way about everything.

There is no more vile an outlook on humanity than looking into the eyes of a vulnerable woman and calculating how that vulnerability can benefit you by getting her to suck your dick.

Well said. And no, they'll never voluntarily show their female relatives their true colours.

@thanksgivingchi

I find it odd that some men think so little of sex that they are determined it is the same as clearing leaves but at the same time value it so highly that they are prepared to buy it from strangers who are only having it because their consent has been bought.

Their sex lives must be really awful.

What about wives? Plenty have sex because they feel like they owe it to their husband. I’ve given sex to partners when I’m not in the mood. We all do things because we have to.