So, the sex "work" "debate"

[FizzyDizzy121]

Having looked through a lot of older threads here, I'm asking for some help.

Do you have a DP or family member that you fundamentally disagree with on a topic as black and white (to me) as sex "work"?

In my younger years, I was very much in favour of choice feminism, including in areas such as prostitution. I believed that the pushback was motivated by our issues around sex and that if a woman (usually) wants to run a business that way, supply and demand right? I did argue for better protections, H&S involvement etc.

Now, my whole approach changed a few years back. Buying consent makes me very, very uneasy and I would argue is a form of coercion/distress rather than freely given. Men (usually) who "visit" prostitutes are having sex with someone they KNOW wouldn't have sex with them if there wasnt money involved which is dodgy on so many grounds.
And all that is before we get to the amount of assaults, trafficking etc involved.

My DP is pretty left leaning (as am I) and views all work as unjust. Humans shouldn't have to be coerced to do labour in order to pay for essentials like shelter or food. And he sees sex "work" as within this bracket. Its exploitation but not any different than a retail worker for example. He says he'd be happy for his relative to be involved in sex "work", he argues the money changing hands is not buying the woman but the labour of the woman (I.e. the sex) for a set amount of time.

How do you respond to such thinking? Does it impact show you think of the other person?

Any thoughts/comments gratefully received

It sounds to me that you have no practical knowledge of what prostitution involves, only what you have read

What do you mean, only what you have read? You mean peer-reviewed research and first hand former accounts from former prostitutes?
They don't count?

Govanhill trafficking gang was family who sold women like cattle

This was 2019.

This happens in our country now.

Sure the poor women had choices on what the men who raped them did to them

That was a headline from newspaper

@IwishNothingButTheBestForYou2

So to say that it's the only job where you have to have body fluids in your mouth is wrong.

I've got a spare five minutes and a sense of humour so I'll ask:

jennywhitehorses - could you name a couple or three other jobs (apart from prostitute) where you might reasonably expect "body flui.....

No. Lost the will to live half way thru.

Oh dear, is it wrong that your post made me laugh?

It sounds to me that you have no practical knowledge of what prostitution involves, only what you have read
Have you rtft? Theres a few ex prossies with our lived experience on here.
And just so you know hunslet, Leeds is a "managed zone" where one prostitute has been killed, where locals complain mightily about the women who live there (not prostitutes) are harrassed regularly for sex, and raped. Do you think those punters are as "civilised " as Soho?

@Gurufloof

It sounds to me that you have no practical knowledge of what prostitution involves, only what you have read Have you rtft? Theres a few ex prossies with our lived experience on here. And just so you know hunslet, Leeds is a "managed zone" where one prostitute has been killed, where locals complain mightily about the women who live there (not prostitutes) are harrassed regularly for sex, and raped. Do you think those punters are as "civilised " as Soho?

I thought it was Holbeck? That is a managed zone. I remember the tragic story about the polish young woman that died.

@Escapeplanning

I worked for an NGO providing education for girls in the developing world. They attempted to add a clause to the employment contracts prohibiting them from prostituting women in the locality they worked. The men, local and expats refused. Like our pigeon here they were convinced it was their right and there was no conflict with the mission and their job of educating girls out of the need to resort to this degradation.

So they see it as a perk of the job. Exploitative bastards.

@Maldivesdream yes sorry holbeck.

He says he'd be happy for his relative to be involved in sex "work"

This is always such crap.

So he wouldn't mind mentioning down the pub that his sister/daughter/niece had take up prostitution for a living, giving her fledgling business a helping hand by hiring her himself, or recommending her services to his friends and colleagues?

Right back at him - if not, why not. He knows the answer full well of course.

Mother. He said he'd be ok with his mum working as a prostitute.

Lovely.

Or his niece.

But not his partner... (Huh?)

His mum could be elderly.

Or at least older.

Being on the 'receiving end' of penetration can cause physical damage. There are issues with how fast you heal. Peri and post menopause there are various changes to take into account that I don't want to go into. Additionally. Bending around, being treated roughly. Osteoporosis and less flexibility as well as ageing in general mean that injury is way more likely.

Now I don't know how old his mum is but if she's over 45ish the risks of injury are greater and if not elderly then serious physical damage could result.

Even getting on your knees on the ground or holding a position for a longish period are difficult leading into painful and worse, depending on fitness levels, age, menopause, etc etc etc

Fact is that most 40, 60 or 80 yo will get far more pain damage and slow healing from selling sex than younger women.

It's not ok at all. But any man who sees this as aok for his own mother is an out and out bastard surely. Sociopath? Anyway. Bad words.

@Escapeplanning Do you feel an obligation to protect the NGO you once worked for? Please name it.
Since Oxfam and the multiple others were exposed doing this, the men in 'yours' won't be remarkable, merely repulsive.

Not his partner, because that is where he parks and he doesn't want to dirty himself does he?

This is pure women hate. Madonna where bs.

Its the same as the other one on this thread who shares those views. He openly states on another thread that he would be disgusted if his children slept around, even consensually, yet sees prostitution as equivalent to lifting cement bags. Gross.

It was Plan International.

Oh FFS

Thanks escape.

As a family years ago I suggested that we reach choose a charity to do regular donations to. I already had to cancel 2 after all the stuff a couple of years back. And explain in age appropriate language to the girls why I was stopping so they could pick another one. 'the charities were sometimes hurting the people they were supposed to help'.

Which is a shit message to give when you have sat down with your kids and said you know, we can afford to support charity and let's do that.

And the acknowledgement from those charities. That people were giving their hard earned cash to. And some of their people were taking advantage of/ coercing/ etc. And the charities covered it up. And moved the men involved to different countries rather than sacking them. The ones in Haiti said. They were all over the age of consent. We deny that any woman paid to go to these 'parties' were underage. They were over the age of consent and it was a way to make money.

From the charity involved. That was their statement.

It was a big one too.

There were loads of threads on here at the time saying. When they say they are going to help people in haiti, it's men then? The women they can sexually exploit.

There have also been plenty of reports of NGOs with food relief asking for sex acts in exchange.

The UN peacekeepers have reportedly done some genuinely appalling stuff. No real investigation or consequences.

Plan though- we sponsor a girl through plan. And the men who are in the ground refused to sign a no sexual exploitation clause? Fucks sake.

The behaviour of the men working for these charities. I believe with some charities/ NGOs they were asking for sex acts from women to get the food parcels. Food parcels paid for with money to help and chosen by eg young girls...

I mean it's just diabolical behaviour. Despicable.

For the 'it's a service and a fair way to earn money etc' people (almost always men) who post on threads like this. It's a sort of instinctive men together thing. Even if they don't do it, they don't want other men having their behaviour impeded with.

The men who went to Haiti who worked for charities and stayed in a big posh house and had 'sex parties' with local women (who were in the midst of a massive disaster with lack of food etc). That's generous of them? Helping those women by paying them to participate in group sex etc?

It was claimed some were underage. The charity said 'no evidence of that'. No evidence of how old unidentified females who were paid for sex in a disaster situation were? Well then. Fair enough! No. Fuck that. What a pathetic statement. No evidence

Anyway. Plan are at it too? Fucks sake.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-48593401

It was Oxfam.

Job like any other right chaps.

Man upthread said he would definitely want to get something for his cash and not just hand it over.

Are there any stats on individuals in the UK, charity donations by sex? Is women's money donated to help, being spent to put men in countries where there are disasters. And the men see offering the women money for sex (and as noted- it often starts with a suggestion proposal or push from a man) as helping them. By paying them for work.

This is all fine according to ops OH and also Stamford.

It's not fine by me, at all.

Plan as well? FFS. Are there any links or anything? We've been donating monthly and writing to this girl for years. Meanwhile the men on the ground and the men on this thread would see her being sexually exploited etc presumably once she is of age, as just fine.

If the charities see these girls as prostitute fodder, and ordinary men on this thread do as well, and the risk locally is early marriage ie also sex they don't want as per their adverts...

What's the fucking point?

She's raped on one side and on the other. With free capitalism on the one hand and religious values on the other.

Fucks sake.

'It isn't true that to be a prostitute you have to have a man's body fluids in your mouth. Most practice safe sex. So to say that it's the only job where you have to have body fluids in your mouth is wrong. It's not a requirement of the job.'

Hold on a minute.

Most? How can anyone know that?

And then even more.
' It's a myth that men can do just what they want to a woman. In Soho there's no kissing, no fingering, no 69.'
Fingering? Kissing?...
Soho?

Soho is all restaurants and stuff now. Tourists. That sort of thing.

I mean I'm quite old and even when I was a girl Soho was gay and prostitutes were kings cross...

Strange post.

Also. While women may or may not have had sex with men in return for cash or drugs. We know what men are like.

Many men push and push and push with girls they are supposed to like. Loads hate condoms.

The claim is that men treat prostitutes with more respect than that treat women they are in relationships with!

If that's what you mean it's a fascinating point. For another thread probably.

I can't remember if my friend asked the men to use condoms when she was 15. In that half hour or so she agreed to have sex with 2 men in return for drugs. That's prostition. They suggested it. She agreed.

These apparent rules about how men who pay for sex are subject to strict rules that they never breach is bizarre.

And what's the fingering thing about? If rather have a random finger up my cunt than a random cock. Any chance of explaining that rule? That is apparently adhered to by every (female) prostitute in Soho?

Soho is all restaurants and stuff now. Tourists. That sort of thing

Yes, that caused raised eyebrows for me too. Possibly I'm spectacularly unobservant but Soho is just another tourist and shopping area between Covent Garden on one side and Picadilly and Mayfair on the other and the theatres on Shaftesbury Avenue to the south.

Soho is used by mainstream companies with lots of money but who like to think themselves edgy, for going out for meals etc. And before anyone says oh that's code... It took a while but in many of those types of things there are women there now and it really is a fancy meal and tbh the men and women with children all keen to get the last train. There are offices in that area again for companies that like to think they're trendy.

Don't understand that comment.

Also very interested in the no fingering comment... I'm baffled.

Agree with everything that has been said upthread about the Aid Agencies.

Just disgusts me that women and girls are always the ones sacrificed for a 'greater good.' It's like even bloody Aid agencies can't see females as fully human.

I don't think the person who lives in the 1960s and who is keen to reassure women that the hub of prostition on London- soho- is across the board very good for female prostitutes as fingering is Not Allowed.

Very odd post!

"Over the age of consent" can mean nine, in some countries, twelve in others (Including Spain, till fairly recent years). Some U.S.A. States have none, but have a theory there ought to be no sex without marriage, though I don't know how the minimum marriage age is set, presumably differing from State to State.

1. We're primarily talking about the UK here, so the age of consent is 16 for consensual, non-transactional sex, and 18 for prostitution/participation in pornography.

2. Even if some countries have ridiculously young ages of consent, that doesn't make it morally right.

3. Where countries have what look like low ages of consent (e.g. Germany's is 14), often this is with the aim of decriminalizing consensual sex between teens, but comes with explicit "Romeo and Juliet" clauses making it illegal for adults (over 18) to have sex with teenagers under 16.

And yes, some US states do have no minimum age for marriage, and this is typically used to cover up inter-family child sexual abuse and resulting pregnancy. It is most definitely not a good thing. The UN is campaigning for a global minimum marriage age of 18.

I seem to have I missed something. What u is the age of consent post from 20mum responding to?

Fuck knows. I never quite follow their posts. Possibly because they just post at random without any underlying coherent thought process.