So, the sex "work" "debate"

[FizzyDizzy121]

Having looked through a lot of older threads here, I'm asking for some help.

Do you have a DP or family member that you fundamentally disagree with on a topic as black and white (to me) as sex "work"?

In my younger years, I was very much in favour of choice feminism, including in areas such as prostitution. I believed that the pushback was motivated by our issues around sex and that if a woman (usually) wants to run a business that way, supply and demand right? I did argue for better protections, H&S involvement etc.

Now, my whole approach changed a few years back. Buying consent makes me very, very uneasy and I would argue is a form of coercion/distress rather than freely given. Men (usually) who "visit" prostitutes are having sex with someone they KNOW wouldn't have sex with them if there wasnt money involved which is dodgy on so many grounds.
And all that is before we get to the amount of assaults, trafficking etc involved.

My DP is pretty left leaning (as am I) and views all work as unjust. Humans shouldn't have to be coerced to do labour in order to pay for essentials like shelter or food. And he sees sex "work" as within this bracket. Its exploitation but not any different than a retail worker for example. He says he'd be happy for his relative to be involved in sex "work", he argues the money changing hands is not buying the woman but the labour of the woman (I.e. the sex) for a set amount of time.

How do you respond to such thinking? Does it impact show you think of the other person?

Any thoughts/comments gratefully received

I would imagine that people with this view would argue that they don’t do it for the same reason they don’t lug around bags of cement - they don’t want to

Yes, but does he really think that those two things would feel the same?
That lifting cement bags feels the same as letting someone use your body to wank into?

OP, what your partner is telling you is that he is quite happy to fuck a (not very willling) body rather than fuck a person. He doesn't regard sex as a way to connect with another person as a person.

You could look up the research that shows sex workers have the same levels of diassociation from their bodies as child sex abuse victims.

The whole 'sex work is work' narrative is solely aimed at women.

Men want to think they are simply using a service. No different than paying for a car wash etc. They can then pretend that those trafficked, pimped out, desperate women are actually happy to be used as a thing to stick their dicks in.

When a woman has to sell her body to get money to feed her kids or pay rent then they have been failed by the government.

Men are never told sex work is work. They just want to try to legitimize their exploitation of women.

Ex sex worker here, I did it when I was in poverty just diagnosed with a life long condition I didn't want to survive on benefits still wanted dd to have nice things now happily my condition is under control and treated and I'm a HCP.
For me no the disturbing thing was the way some of the men didn't even see you as a person with wants and wishes but just an object.
I think almost all sex workers disassociate while doing sex work its the only way to not think about what you are doing.
The shame and stigma were also some of the worst parts for me and not from the men but society as a whole.
I wouldn't ever recommend it my view of men has changed beyond belief aand I would be heartbroken if my DD did it, I'd give her my last penny to stop her doing it .

would he be prepared to rent out his own arse to all comers succinct use of words there!

Also - he then can’t say no to potential comers he is not keen on - because that might count as discrimination and they may have grounds to sue him.

@Whatsnewpussyhat So I agree with bits of what you say but, those trafficked, pimped out, desperate women and has to sell her body to get money to feed her kids or pay rent what about the women who do it by choice? That's the question I asked earlier, I was just wondering what the perspective is on women who make the "choice" to do sex work, as it's getting normalised particularly within younger women.

The thing is women choose is because it's quick fast money and it becomes a trap if women aren't making preparations to leave the industry by saving, studying preparing for normal working life etc if you are independent and indoors £50 hotel £10 sim card credit, get some lingerie, makeup and you can clear £500-700 on a good day some women might only work 4 days a month but still have the average salary of full time worker.

I would also be very wary of a man like this. I can easily imagine the scenario where a couple are strapped for cash but heaven forfend that little citizen Wolfie here would degrade himself by conniving with the capitalist oppressor and do something useful- like carrying bags of cement.

But his partner now? She likes and enjoys sex- why not screw the capitalist oppressors, literally and metaphorically and get paid for doing something she enjoys.

Perhaps your husband could read this article and ask himself if this is the same way someone who carries bags of cement feels at the end of the day. nordicmodelnow.org/2020/04/11/i-believe-legalised-prostitution-strengthens-and-emboldens-misogynistic-attitudes-and-actions-in-men/

The women who do it by choice will be a small %.
I know people who have but went with wealthy, attractive 'clients' and involved meals in fancy restaurants etc. They could pick and choose.
Also once worked with a single mum who worked as a stripper at weekends. Paid off her first mortgage.

The issue with the youth is that this is what they are being sold as the norm. It isn't.

I was just wondering what the perspective is on women who make the "choice" to do sex work, as it's getting normalised particularly within younger women

I've often said I really dislike the term "handmaiden" but in this particular situation I think it fits.

@Whatsnewpussyhat I definitely don't agree with exploiting the vulnerable and I think it's incredibly shameful of our system that people have to resort to prostitution out of desperation.

However, I also think that not all prostitution is "forced" / desperate and some people are capable of making the choice as it can make situations "easier" (depending on your value of money over the act itself, if that makes sense)

@DidoLamenting Can you explain your handmaiden analogy?

You should also read that link @lousywithvirginity

Meixo

Thank you for sharing your posts. I am glad that you have been able to get your health under control.

@DidoLamenting

My DP is pretty left leaning (as am I) and views all work as unjust. Humans shouldn't have to be coerced to do labour in order to pay for essentials like shelter or food. And he sees sex "work" as within this bracket. Its exploitation but not any different than a retail worker for example. He says he'd be happy for his relative to be involved in sex "work", he argues the money changing hands is not buying the woman but the labour of the woman (I.e. the sex) for a set amount of time

How do you respond to such thinking? Does it impact show you think of the other person?

My response would be there's no arguing with stupid and I frankly wouldn't waste my time with anyone who put forward such rubbish.

The only exception might be if I were about 30 years younger and the person was drop dead gorgeous and I fancied a short term, meaninglessness fling.

I'm with Dido on this. I really would not have a relationship if there was such a fundamental difference in values.

On paper, if a woman was able to fully CHOSE sex work, then I would argue this is her choice.
There was an article recently about a journalist who started to do webcam work during lockdown and wrote about her experience. I would assume this was a decision that was hers.

However, for many women, the choice isn’t really a choice. Not when they are drug addicts or have no money and see no other way to defend her kids. Not when their self esteem has been destroyed by Rape or sexual assault or abuse at home when they were children/teens.
And that’s before starting on being unable to stop anyway.

Plus of course, there is the issue of RISK. How can those women ever truly consent to have sex wo a condom for example? That IS considered rape and many men will coerce those women into no using a condom or they will take it away at the first opportunity.
And of course, every time this happens, they take the risks of STD etc....

If sex work was the same as other work then why are women and girls trafficked into it

Women and girls aren’t trafficked into being scientists or bar workers

And yeah if it was my Dp who thought this I would ditch him jeez. I can’t imagine a man saying that

Seems like he thinks women and girls bodies are worth nothing

@littlbrowndog

If sex work was the same as other work then why are women and girls trafficked into it

Women and girls aren’t trafficked into being scientists or bar workers

This is the best response to the whole 'sex work' rubbish I've ever seen!

There are no vacancies for prostitution "work" at my job centre.

@Clymene I've read the article, and it's horrible to read.

This part though sticks out; "Human rights of workers are not enforced in legalised prostitution (despite what the pro-sex work community desperately wants you to believe). If they were, the majority of buyers would eventually be banned from venues, the police would be called constantly.".

And I think this is what needs to be happening - stricter regulation and policing for the benefit of sex workers. I think some people have the capacity to make the choice, but nobody should be raped or abused.

@Clymene

You should also read that link *@lousywithvirginity*

I believe the one major thing which oppresses women and the removal of which would make all women's and girls' lives better and a better society generally is the "sex trade"

It is demeaning and degrading to women and brutalising to women and upunters. Any women who chooses it when she has another option is complicit in supporting it.

Sorry Clymene not sure how your name got copied in there. I was replying to lousywithvirginity.

Do you think stricter policing would protect sex workers from long term psychological damage @lousywithvirginity?