I fucking despair

[InTheTempest]

I frequently read this section but have never posted before.

Just had an argument with my brother tonight about trans issues, self ID, and in particular women's sports. He's a heterosexual man- who I've never heard express an opinion on things like this until now. We were discussing biological males being able to compete in women's sport and he just couldn't see the issue in it. That 'there's always someone who has an advantage for whatever reason so it's just a luck thing'. For example being born in a rich country will give athletes an advantage etc. I tried to explain that we don't segregate sports by those factors though but we do segregate by biological sex.

He also didn't understand the issue over women's rights to safe spaces, minimising it completely- 'people can be dicks to each other anyway' and basically saying how likely is it that men are going to using self ID to abuse women.

I just give up, I really do. I mean I don't think there's any point trying to discuss these things with people who think like this. I don't have the energy. He was really quite rude to me and tbh I'm pretty angry at that tonight.

I guess I just want to know, how do you deal with men around you who think like this? How do you feel about it? My male relatives wouldn't consider themselves sexist but they are in ways they can't even be bothered to try to understand (my dad couldn't see the issue with grid girls in F1 before).

Just feeling very frustrated with it all tonight. It feels like women will never reach equality.

bellinisurge "out of the mouths of babes*........

Some women will be sufficiently strong enough to be firefighters. Most won't be.

Actually, if you read Invisible Woman, what you start to realise is that the reason most women are not strong enough to be firefighters is because as a profession the norms have been designed based on male bodies. If the norm for firefighter equipment had been to develop them to be smaller, lighter etc, then in fact the problem would never arise that women struggle. It's a common theme.

I think a lot of the TWAW people, women especially, come from a mindset in which they want to be open and inclusive. And so their thinking is that if that "poor natal-man feels so strongly that he wants to become a woman, dress as a woman, take hormones, undergo surgery etc then frankly, the least we can do is welcome him into our spaces." And furthermore, this thinking is also predicated on the assumption that trans women are good people who understand that things might be difficult and confusing.

But the problem is that as we've learnt, the above type of trans women is actually rare. And that self ID allows predators and liars to access women's spaces. And that trans woman, the "good" ones or the liars, simply want to gain control.

The woman I know who have the thinking above, are often surprised to hear about how many trans women are taking part competitively in women's sport. And even MORe surprised when they realise that so many of these trans women haven't even bothered with more than the most basic of physical or hormone changes? Their first response is "what about Semenya?" but that's an entirely different situation and I think it's a pity that she's dragged into the trans women in sports debate.

With quite a lot of men,It think they accept TWAW precisely because they themselves are men and they don't see TW as part of their group. TW aren't masculine enough and their view of manhood isn't big enough to incorporate a very feminine presenting male as a man.

And if someone isn't a man, they must be a woman. QED, job done, TWAW.

My DP was like this - he's worked with several TW and said he'd never want to see them in a male prison, they'd be targeted. It would be cruel not to use their new name or say She/her, if at risk of aggression the womens toilets are a reasonable refuge and you can hardly go into the men's changing room to try dresses on, can you?

It took MONTHS of hammering on about this and pulling up examples and data for him to finally see what we're on about.

A younger male I knew referred to a lady boy as a woman with a penis but in reality it’s a man with fake boobs. It took some explaining for it to sink in

Also porn has fuelled a lot of this movement - and i think a lot of 'straight' men would have trouble admitting they've been masturbating to a man with fake boobs!

OP sorry if I missed it

Does he know that trans often just means self ID? Is he imagining a lot of medical change?

I pointed out that it's about self ID but he just didn't get it. Very much 'I can't get too worked up about it tbh' and I think he said something about the discrimination trans people face, how he wouldn't want to make people who are already suffering feel worse.

I don't think it was just a winding up a sibling kind of thing- I think it's pure and simple misogyny. And also he fully admitted it doesn't affect him so why should he be bothered?

I really, truly hope he has a daughter one day.

He’s probably not bothered no.

Is it worth showing him this weightlifter?

twitter.com/realkatiejow/status/1232898091583295488

There was a thread collating trans women in sports but I can’t find it.