I fucking despair

[InTheTempest]

I frequently read this section but have never posted before.

Just had an argument with my brother tonight about trans issues, self ID, and in particular women's sports. He's a heterosexual man- who I've never heard express an opinion on things like this until now. We were discussing biological males being able to compete in women's sport and he just couldn't see the issue in it. That 'there's always someone who has an advantage for whatever reason so it's just a luck thing'. For example being born in a rich country will give athletes an advantage etc. I tried to explain that we don't segregate sports by those factors though but we do segregate by biological sex.

He also didn't understand the issue over women's rights to safe spaces, minimising it completely- 'people can be dicks to each other anyway' and basically saying how likely is it that men are going to using self ID to abuse women.

I just give up, I really do. I mean I don't think there's any point trying to discuss these things with people who think like this. I don't have the energy. He was really quite rude to me and tbh I'm pretty angry at that tonight.

I guess I just want to know, how do you deal with men around you who think like this? How do you feel about it? My male relatives wouldn't consider themselves sexist but they are in ways they can't even be bothered to try to understand (my dad couldn't see the issue with grid girls in F1 before).

Just feeling very frustrated with it all tonight. It feels like women will never reach equality.

Women don't "get it" because they've internalised the "be nice" socialisation put on all girls from a very young age. Women are brought up to be nice even to the point of being detrimental. Women only "get it" after they realize they've been taken for a ride.

I'm not sure I think that's really it either. People do often think they should be nice, for sure, and there are a certain number of people who think about it only at that level. They tend to be people who have a pretty shallow iew of what is nice, TBH. But there are many women who are willing to go to the mat on this issue, and the motivation seems to come from something deeper down IMO. They are true believers.

A lot of this 'no difference' thing is down to not making the very simple distinction between individuals versus the population. Some women will be sufficiently strong enough to be firefighters. Most won't be. Saying that women who are capable of a job should be allowed to do it if they wish in no way leads to the idiotic suggestion 'feminists want women to do 50% of all jobs' which MRA types trot out.

We run into this though on so many issues, people who can't sort out when it is logical to talk in terms of the group, and when it is appropriate to talk in terms of individuals. And you see mistakes in both directions, people talking about one when the other is relevant.

Feminism has had a particular problem though I think in allowing this, because even those who will allow for physiological differences at the level of bodily performance will tend to deny differences in terms of behaviour or even personality - the fear seems to be that allowing that there are valid differences we could note about men and women as groups would mean we are going to stop treating individuals as individuals.

Anyway, one thing I have become convinced of is that most people do not have a natural understanding of statistics.

Many men are more suspicious of other men than women are. Dh is - I have done the “oh he’s so nice” etc whereas dh will roll his eyes and is often far more cynical about men’s motives. Often non beardy woke men are instantly suspicious of self id.

Anyway, one thing I have become convinced of is that most people do not have a natural understanding of statistics.

Yes, and that common sense is something of a misnomer.

But there are many women who are willing to go to the mat on this issue, and the motivation seems to come from something deeper down IMO. They are true believers.

That's because there are a lot of women who will do anything to get male approval.

Well I’ve just seen a tweet by the Ri asking for people who identify as women to complete a survey about women in science. It’s not going well and they are a bit sniffy...

That's because there are a lot of women who will do anything to get male approval.

Really? No women believe this, they just act like they do because they either have been told to be nice or want male approval?

I hate to break it to you, but women are capable of having differences of opinion that have nothing to do with men, and there are about the same variety of bright vs dim women as there are men.

You don't need to break it to me I'm well aware that women can have differences of opinion
I also know that some women will say owt to be on the side of men. Those two things can both be true.

There are only a few reasons why women go along with the TWAW line

1. belief that women should all just be nice regardless
2. you get woke points
3. you get male approval
4. you get to pretend you're virtuous, that you're putting others before yourself (when you're actually NOT putting other women before yourself)
5. it's fashionable.

Also, let's not forget the sunken cost fallacy.

It takes an awful lot for someone to admit they were wrong.

I'd add: they think it's true.

They see issues in terms of tribal identity.

No one believes TWAW is true.
The "except when" always comes out in the end.

I think parents who have encouraged or at least accepted their child’s transition believe it, on some level.

I can sympathize. In their position I wouldn’t want to re-examine my beliefs once it was too late either.

That's because there are a lot of women who will do anything to get male approval

Really? No women believe this, they just act like they do because they either have been told to be nice or want male approval?

I hate to break it to you, but women are capable of having differences of opinion that have nothing to do with men, and there are about the same variety of bright vs dim women as there are men

I agree Goosefoot I find it really odd that so many justifcations are found for a woman doing something stupid, or cruel or bad or selfish. There's always some excuse. It's sexist in its own way not to acknowledge women are as capable of being stupid, cruel, selfish dim etc all on their own accord.

What are you on about? It's not a "justification" to say that some women will do anything for male approval. It's just a fact. Just like some women will put their own personal advancement over the good of womankind as a whole. I'm not "excusing" that position in the slightest. Actually I'm disgusted by women who do this as, however much easier it might make life to toe the line, it's always a betrayal.
I'm not quite sure why you're trying to make it a contentious point tbh.

No one believes TWAW is true.

Yeah, yeah they do. Some have no boundaries on that, others might say they are a different kind of woman which means there should be limits around things like sports. They tend to believe that we now know that women refers to gender, not sex. It's not most people but there are a good number of progressives that think that way.

And yes, some women will do things for reasons like their own benefit or male approval. But that doesn't tell us none of them believe TWAW. There are women who believe far weirder things than that.

There is another massive reason why so many apparently sane people believe that TWAW

The New Thought Movement / The Secret / The Law of Attraction / Positive Thinking

A new and dangerous philosophy has spread like a virus and is now a global pandemic

People who follow this philosophy believe

You can become whatever you want to be just using the power of your mind, thus if you want to be a millionaire the only thing that is stopping you is your negative thoughts. If you believe you are a millionaire, really and truly believe it, you will be a millionaire.

If you are morbidly obese you should be proud and happy and not worry about adverse health effects. Any adverse health effects are because of negative thoughts and wrong thinking, not because of your obesity.

If you struggle to understand why you stole, cheated, abused people and ruined your life, you were probably sexually abused as a child. If you can’t remember being abused it is because the abuse was so traumatic that you couldn’t bear to remember it. All you need to do is to imagine what might have happened and the memories will come. The memories are real because you wouldn’t have done bad things unless you were abused. If you think you might have been abused you really were.

If you have cancer or some other serious illness it is not due to genetics, diet, lifestyle or other factors, it is because of negative thoughts and wrong thinking.

If you are a man but want to be a woman you are a woman. You really are. An authentic woman at that.

Central to the new thought movement are concepts of clean and dirty, outside and inside, clearing blockages, detoxes and transformation.

Just as vulnerable people tormented by internal racism may attempt to heal their feelings of inner badness by using dangerous skin whitening creams, others may attempt to detox and to expel badness from the body through gender reassignment surgery. Others may submit to yoni massage / genital de-armouring or sexual abuse from a predatory guru in order to rid their reproductive organs of invisible psychic parasites.

Also see quackery, mindfulness, MLM scams, LGATs, ostritch position

a very clever woman highlights problems with the New Thought Movement

No straight man believes it.

I was half listening to the BBC Women's Hour on Radio 4 yesterday and was depressed to hear a glowing endorsement of astrology via a guest astrologer who spent a long time promoting pseudoscience

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p084rnk

When the guest astrologer was asked why so many people are turning to astrology she replied that it was partly due to mindfulness as mindfulness makes people "open" to all kinds of ideas that they might not be open to without the mindfulness. It was the only thing she said that wasn't completely deluded IMO

The New Thought movement has a lot to answer for

Another aspect of the New Thought movement is something called Nonviolent Communication

Because, just as you can transform your life through the power of positive thinking, thoughts and words are violent and thus a new form of communication is needed to stop the hurty words.

Running late, more to follow soon

Some believe TWAW.

Some are trying to be kind.

Some men and women deep down feel women’s sport is inferior to men’s anyway. So they don’t really care.

Interesting conversation with my 12 year old this morning. She was talking about Animal Farm which they did at school and how it was boring and irrelevant . I said that it had lots of relevance to the trans debate whereby you start off wanting to be helpful and inclusive and anti-prejudice but that good kind idea is exploited and turned against you. And you are in the wrong for pointing out the truth.
I explained about transwomen wanting to compete against women in sport. "Well, that's mad", she said "I bet some men will say they are women just to get a good place or win in a competition. I couldn't box against a bloke or something ". And then I moved on to talking about toilets and prisons. " Well that's mad" she said again. Then I told her about JK Rowling's tweet to which she said "Well, obviously ". And then I told her about the trolling responses and she was amazed.
I told her that expressing the views she has in public might well be controversial so to be careful. "but it's biology ", she said.
So don't despair completely, op.

Your daughter - more sense than all the Labour leadership contenders put together!

I think that there are definitely true believers in TWAW. The ones with no except for... whatsoever are very extreme, I grant you, but they do exist. But even the ones who allow for exceptions are more common than you might think.

However, I do think that's often through a number of factors like 'be kind' socialization, and other forms of tribalism. Some will undoubtedly hinge on individuals being gullible, stupid, selfish, etc. but I don't think it is a belief that comes naturally, I do think you need to have the neo-religious mechanisms to help you.

As an example, I think Lisa Nandy and Alice Roberts are probably true believers in Genderism, for different reasons. Nandy has adopted a 'be nice' motivation, which has been ably assisted by meeting specific cult members and her own self image of what she deems 'integrity'. She can't allow herself to listen to her misgivings, but I bet they exist.

Roberts is a successful woman in a male dominated sphere, who has carved out a telegenic niche for herself, and, I rather suspect, doesn't like other women very much. Her adherence to the religion has a pretty strong streak of ladder pulling and a certain glee in using her authority to scorn others.

They have their own reasons for TWAW, but they do believe it.