I fucking despair

[InTheTempest]

I frequently read this section but have never posted before.

Just had an argument with my brother tonight about trans issues, self ID, and in particular women's sports. He's a heterosexual man- who I've never heard express an opinion on things like this until now. We were discussing biological males being able to compete in women's sport and he just couldn't see the issue in it. That 'there's always someone who has an advantage for whatever reason so it's just a luck thing'. For example being born in a rich country will give athletes an advantage etc. I tried to explain that we don't segregate sports by those factors though but we do segregate by biological sex.

He also didn't understand the issue over women's rights to safe spaces, minimising it completely- 'people can be dicks to each other anyway' and basically saying how likely is it that men are going to using self ID to abuse women.

I just give up, I really do. I mean I don't think there's any point trying to discuss these things with people who think like this. I don't have the energy. He was really quite rude to me and tbh I'm pretty angry at that tonight.

I guess I just want to know, how do you deal with men around you who think like this? How do you feel about it? My male relatives wouldn't consider themselves sexist but they are in ways they can't even be bothered to try to understand (my dad couldn't see the issue with grid girls in F1 before).

Just feeling very frustrated with it all tonight. It feels like women will never reach equality.

I get it - when someone first brought this up with me two years ago I felt so uncomfortable and couldn’t believe how hostile and homophobic they were being and it really didn’t matter about a few loos or over 40s cycling races because surely they would never do prisons... and then you have your wtf moment and start working back through it all again.
I’ve struggled to explain it to people too - the breadth of the impact and the separation from lesbian and gay rights. They really cornered the niche in ‘vulnerability’ and ‘mental anguish’ which women somehow aren't allowed to carry off in the same way.

Ita not much, but I discussed this with my 85 year old dad recently. He had no idea it had gone this far and was appalled. Hes very much in the "live and let live" camp but he was outraged by concept of self ID and what that means for womens spaces, sports etc.

So there is hope.

Just show him a photo of the high school runners - the girls race. Where the winner (and second place) has a very clear bugle in places a girl don’t have a bulge (and muscles like Samson). Ask him what is going on in this photo?

Often people don’t ‘get it’ until it affects them.

So my sister used to take the mickey until I enlightened her with the theory that as a lesbian she was hatefully transphobic for not wanting to sleep with a woman with a penis.

My right-on BIL - I send even need to do anything with him. I was reading and article about how (English gymnastics?) boys were to be allowed to change and compete with girls if they IDed as girls. He has a daughter who is into dance and gymnastics. He’s also religious.

Keep at it. My DH and I have 3 DD’s. I don’t think he really got it until I explicitly laid the problems out to him in relation to the children. He gets it - but still doesn’t quite understand the male intimidation aspect.

Also, he thought that if a full bodied transwomen goes into the female communal changing room they could be done for indecent exposure... not according to centreparks! The whole situation is soo ludicrous that sane men - who aren’t misogynist - can’t believe it’s true - rapists in female prisons, men in changing rooms, men in women’s sports etc..

Put it to him about what he will do in a realistic situation - he’s at the sports centre- sees a man - not staff- going into a female changing room behind a 14 yr old girl- they are obviously not together - no one else is around - what does he do? Does he help the girl or leave her alone with the man and pretend the man is really a woman.

I think it takes a while for some people to realise the implications of all this. About a year ago my dad was telling me "this is all a phase" and to calm down but now he's finally got it he's absolutely raging.

Other men are just misogynists and all of this plays right into their hands. I had a woke bro "friend" of mine telling me TWAW last summer and then last weekend I heard him tell the most disgusting misogynist joke about Serena Williams (I can't even bear to repeat it). Men like this are beyond help I think, just steer well clear.

But probably for a majority of men, they do think 'transwomen are women except for relationship purposes'.

I'm not sure it's the majority, but I think it's more that they see transwomen as not men - so they divide the world into proper men and others. This regressive mindset - which is derogatory to women and to transwomen - is explicitly present in the language used by eg the Green Party with the category 'non men'.

I think men have an enormous leap to understand the impact of sexism on women. I was trying to explain to a man the other day that I wasn't surprised that he wasn't as invested in women's liberation as I was, because he benefitted from women not being liberated, and while he may not indulge in unrepentant sexism, he has no reason to challenge the current status quo.

He actually got angry with me and even suggested that I should thank him for being interested, and that he could be better at feminism because his motives to liberate me would be altruistic and self sacrificial rather than self serving like mine.

He didn't even see what he was saying and how he was proving my point. This is why men are never feminists.

When it comes to sport I always think a picture tells a thousand words.
This every time.

I don’t think any man will ever fully get it - my DH is a good egg but he comes out with some stonking sexism occasionally.
I read White Fragility and found that all of it also applies to sexism and “male fragility”. DH hates it when I say “stop being fragile and hear what I’m saying” ie when you air a grievance all men care about are their fragile feelings.

1/10

My dh sort of gets it primarily because he’s involved in umpiring and I’ve been talking to him about the duty of care aspect. What happens if a female team brings along a TW? how will he umpire things like dangerous tackles? How does it sit alongside his responsibility to protect players on the pitch?

I think for a lot of men, even the feminist allies, it's hard because on some instinctive level they understand that if the status quo changes, they lose out.

eg women only shortlists/ preference for women to be hired/promoted etc. I've lost count of then number of men who have told me that is it "fair to simply exclude a man who might be perfectly capable/the best simply because he's a man?" And my response is always, "no, it's not fair. But that's what's been happening to women and minorities for centuries so some rebalancing is needed. Plus, intrinsic bias etc means that almost inevitably the white man will get the job even if he isn't the best candidate." But it's incredibly hard for them to process. the idea of being excluded is so incredibly foreign to them. And perhaps that's why they find the trans women are women thing so hard - they're not used to being allowed to do or go wherever they want.

Bling - it's true. Every area of life where women have carved out a little corner for themselves (even Mumsnet! and women-only spaces) are seen as women having some sort of legalised privilege over men - even though these things are only introduced to redress the balance of the incredible disadvantage of women since time immemorial.

For some, it feels like they're saying "ha, you had it so good for a while, now some males are being women and having some of that too! You brought this on yourselves!"

Plus I do think some feel that transwomen are genuinely more oppressed than women, they feel more sorry for the males that don't feel male than they do for women.

Men,as a class, only think things aren’t fair when it’s not fair on them. They are quiet about sexism, inequality etc until they perceive themselves to be a risk of losing their position

Plus I do think some feel that transwomen are genuinely more oppressed than women, they feel more sorry for the males that don't feel male than they do for women.

My DB actually made a comment alluding to that. Very quick to feel sympathy for trans people feeling oppressed, not so much women. Also made a comment 'do you think I never have struggles in my life?' 🙄🤦‍♀️

My partner understood a lot this stuff immediately but I wonder if it's because he was the only brown kid at school (and one of the poorest) so has experienced structural discrimination first-hand. Empathising with women is not the same as being one though and so I don't think he'll ever really "get it" like we do. Just as I don't think I'll ever fully understand what it's like for black women in the UK.

Your DB is extremely fragile (like many men) and can’t face the truth. He cannot even face a tiny amount of discomfort before he starts to bleat!

I will throw a few bones to the poor fuckers 😂(men). I work with men; I’m the only female. None of them are buying TWAW for a moment. They are all over 30 tho and not woke

Starting this thread has made me remember a conversation I had with a misogynist pig on tinder, i screenshotted but won't post- to sum him up, these were his views:

Things are awful in the Middle East for women but here and in the US apparent women are doing considerably better than men

Women earn more than men when compared like for like, about 8% more

More women graduate uni with degrees than men (unsure of relevance)

Women in their late 20s and 30s are far more likely to get into senior management roles than men

Lots of women take maternity leave at that point but the ones that don't are statistically likely to do better than men

This is just for starters, he was absolutely ridiculous in his arguments as to why women have things better. Also 'more men go to jail'- I laughed at that- yes dear, because men commit more crime. He also brought male suicide into it which I thought was sick. My response was that this absolutely needs addressing- men need to be able to seek support for their mental health but this isn't the fault of women- it's toxic masculinity causing these problems. Funnily enough he didn't have an answer to that.

He also described feminism as a negative mindset. I told him he was sexist- he accused me of resorting to being offensive and I 'could do better'.

He then took a mocking tone with me- he loves women apparently. He employs women and one of them 'is awesome'.

I enjoyed telling him what a complete dick he was.

InTheTempest

I think a lot of guys understand this and support the women, certainly men like myself who have competed at sport before. I think your brother is at best being totally disingenuous, or worst a complete plonker.
I was peaked back in October 2018, when I saw McKinnon on the podium with two women there. At first I thought it was a wind up, then checked it out against a more trustworthy sporting site.
I started a thread on a cycling forum, highlighting why this should never happen - anatomy and physiology are the main reasons. Many people on the forum (mostly men like myself) agreed with me, but there were a few sneery replies form people who obviously hate women.
Maybe you should give your brother a few examples, (the pictures of McKinnon the cyclist and Brazilian volleyball player Tiffany Abreu are quite start) of women's v men's sporting achievements?
In 2017, the US women's football team (probably the best in the World) lost to an U15 boys team 5 - 2.

www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-boys-squad-beat-the-u-s-womens-national-team-in-a-scrimmage/

Under 15 boys can run faster than FloJo's women's 100 metre record, something which no other woman has come close to.

Your brother is allowed to call feminism "negative" yet doesn't like being called "sexist" - sounds like double standards to me.

@andyoldlabour just to point out that was an idiot on tinder who called feminism negative- all of my previous post was about a pig on tinder. Although I do wonder exactly what DB's views are on feminism. It's not something I'm going to discuss again with him. I'm definitely going to focus on my son and how I can educate him.

Tbh I feel like the odd one out in my family. I don't want any more arguments. So going to keep myself to myself, and as we're not what I'd call close anyway just completely limit any interaction with DB.

Another picture to show him
www.google.de/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fpbs.twimg.com%2Fmedia%2FDmsHm1gUwAAKTcJ.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fsuperfooty%2Fstatus%2F1038932924177952769&tbnid=CJ9G_oqYAovHcM&vet=12ahUKEwjmoe3I3uznAhVBihoKHQaTBR8QMyghegQIARBE..i&docid=o_4tEIEUDXQDjM&w=792&h=710&q=hannah%20mouncey&ved=2ahUKEwjmoe3I3uznAhVBihoKHQaTBR8QMyghegQIARBE

Also ask him does he think there is such a thing as a woman with a penis and would he fuck one

I think a lot of guys understand this and support the women
Yeah I have to say I've been pleasantly surprised and cautiously encouraged by how many men I've spoken to do get it. What they're not doing (at least not the ones I know) is speaking up. But then I'm very careful myself.