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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Museum of London - why female-only toilets were so important

92 replies

pearlkent · 08/08/2018 15:31

I was just looking up the history of female-only public/workplace toilets, so that I could quote it back to my supposedly-feminist (born in the 1960s, all went to university in the early 1980s) friends who just don't seem to be aware of the the impending erasure of women's rights, and I found this great link:

www.museumoflondon.org.uk/discover/womens-right-work-toilet-bathroom-victorian-london-wwi-factory-protest

The message really needs to get out to ALL women, especially in this 100th anniversary year ("Year of the Woman" - yeah right), that we are about to lose so much that previous generations fought for.

OP posts:
seafret · 08/08/2018 15:48

Thank for this Pearl

I have just emailed to see if the loo paper can be bought to use in conjunction with other campaigning etc. You never know!

happydappy2 · 08/08/2018 16:12

I really don’t understand why trans women don’t campaign for gender neutral facilities ALONGSIDE sex segregated ones- the world we live in today, with everyone having a camera on their phone, makes it even more important that women & girls can pee without fear of a man filming them or worse. If trans make up approx .5 % of the population & women 51%, they are surely fighting a loosing battle trying to force themselves into women’s only spaces.

NeedChoos · 08/08/2018 16:22

My thoughts too - happy! What is wrong with a 3rd space? Surely the extra special- ness of it should satisfy some of the TRAs and perpetually aggrieved trans groups? No?

ThunderInMyHeart · 08/08/2018 16:32

When I first saw gender neutral toilets at the Barbican, I thought 'ooooh, how progressive'...then I went to the ICA.

The gender neutrals toilets there were just a sight. And a bomb site. Whacking great urinal at the side...and one cubicle with a loose door on it. So, basically, they'd taken the 'male' sign off the door and done bugger all else. I don't want to walk in and see a penis urinating. My BF went in after me and came out looking a bit worse for wear [finally. He gets a taste of what being a woman (fuck knows how to phrase this any longer) is like]. He said, 'I wouldn't want to be at the urinal when a man OR woman walked in.'

Have gender neutral toilets all you want, but make them purely one space i.e. you open the door and you can lock that door. There shouldn't be cubicles or partitioned spaces.

Mumsnut · 08/08/2018 16:49

ironically, the Museaum of London is largely funded and controlled by the Corporation of London - see threads passim

heresyandwitchcraft · 08/08/2018 17:19

Thanks OP, what a brilliant reminder of why we need women-only facilities.

Wherismymind · 08/08/2018 17:28

I can't belive people are still banging on about a third space. It's not going to happen.

Who will pay for this third space? It would cost billions and for what 1% of the population. Its not going to happen.

Trans people don't want a third space because they don't want to be "other" they want to be their chosen gender. So they're not going to campaign for it.

heresyandwitchcraft · 08/08/2018 17:35

What's the solution for non-binary people, Wherismymind?

BlueEyedPersephone · 08/08/2018 17:38

Why can't all toilets be cubicles and all unisex, no urinals and no fear

BlueEyedPersephone · 08/08/2018 17:40

Sorry posted too soon, I don't care what the person in the next cubicle is doing and hopefully they don't care what I am.

stephLDS18 · 08/08/2018 17:44

When will the contributors to this board stop obsessing over toilets? Can someone cite figures for the number of trans women convicted of attacking users of female toilets anywhere in the UK over say the past 10 years? I suggest the figure is probably zero or very near.

heresyandwitchcraft · 08/08/2018 17:51

Because toilets are important. There is a difference between having a rule with some exceptions, and saying that anyone is allowed in.

We discussed a recent case of two young girls being assaulted in a female toilet by a male on a thread today:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3329936-teen-films-girl-in-toilet

happydappy2 · 08/08/2018 18:44

I feel there are more men posting on this thread than women!

ReluctantCamper · 08/08/2018 18:53

have you not been following the south korea spy cam issue stephLDS18 ?

Yambabe · 08/08/2018 19:05

Steph most women are not bothered about old-school transsexuals in the toilets. They've looked the other way for decades because the numbers were very small and there was little or no perceived threat.

The issue is that by widening the trans umbrella and then saying anyone who wants to can self-id as a woman Stonewall and the TRAs who are shouting for this are effectively opening up a loophole to allow any old pervert in because they can say they are a woman and entitled to be there.

We're not worried about trans people in our intimate spaces. We're afraid of perverts and abusers.

Sadly it seems that the genuine transsexuals who just want to pee in peace lose either way. Open up the ladies and the abusers follow them in. Segregate by natal sex and they are barred from going where they feel comfortable. It's shit.

heresyandwitchcraft · 08/08/2018 19:32

I second everything Yambabe said. And it really sucks that the transsexuals who see the problem with self-ID are just not being heard in this "debate" at all.

Beamur · 08/08/2018 19:38

As posters have already said, the worry women have is from people abusing a more open system.
Women and transsexuals have been quietly using the same facilities for years.

UpstartCrow · 08/08/2018 19:48

BlueEyedPersephone
Why can't all toilets be cubicles and all unisex, no urinals and no fear
Why don't you campaign for a third, gender neutral option? That way you can have your 'Lets All Pee Together In Peace', and so can women who dont want mixed sex bathrooms for all the reasons that have been listed so many times.

ChattyLion · 08/08/2018 20:02

I would encourage anyone with doubts about why women want and need women’s toilets as a single-sex space (as opposed to the gender neutral option only, or sharing unadapted toilets with Male-bodied people), to read this thread.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3203454-What-do-you-use-the-womens-toilets-for

^^^ Personally (speaking as a female woman) I really don’t want to only have the choice of gender neutral toilets.

I value the women-only space that the women’s toilets provides (ie outside of the cubicle too- the whole space).

Many very important reasons to protect these spaces for women and girls were set out by posters on this thread.

Ereshkigal · 08/08/2018 20:05

I think we need a campaign of holding up cards saying why we personally need particular female spaces. Has that been done yet?

ToeToToe · 08/08/2018 20:12

Why can't all toilets be cubicles and all unisex, no urinals and no fear

Because there are voyeurs around who enjoy listening to women in the toilet. I don't know why it gets them off so much - but it does.

Because men's toilets are grim. Men wee on the floor. I don't know why they can't aim properly, but a proportion of them don't. I used to work in a bar where we had to do the cleaning by rota, including the toilets - believe me - cleaning the men's toilets was everybody's last choice.

It's not too much to ask to have a private space for females.

But the writing is on the wall with this one - I suspect trans rights will be put (are being put) above women's privacy everywhere.

We won't be able to challenge men in women's spaces anymore - because anyone who says they are a woman, is a woman under this new gender identity ideology.

ChattyLion · 08/08/2018 20:24

Also thanks for the link OP- really interesting article!

Wherismymind · 08/08/2018 21:28

The answer is, if you look like a woman or are a biological woman, you use the women's.

Oh wait that's the system we have now. Seems to work fine to me.

Which begs the questions, why are people campaigning for change, who are these people and do they have alteria motives.

I'm guessing cross dressing fetishes, opertunistic perverts and mra. Because why would a transexual that already has use of their chosen facility campaign for change.

Turph · 08/08/2018 21:33

Who will pay for this third space? It would cost billions and for what 1% of the population. Its not going to happen.
That's why there are no disabled toilets anywhere...

Wherismymind · 08/08/2018 22:05

That's why there are no disabled toilets anywhere...

Disabled toilets are completely different. A disabled toilet has aids in it to facilitate a disabled person. A disabled person could litrially not use a normal toilet and there fore not go out the house. They actually need disabled toilets and so they are funded and provided.

Transgender people don't need a third toilet, in fact they don't even want it. Women want them to have one so they don't have to share. Trans people and woman can use the toilets we have in place now so funding would not be granted. And why should it be. Funding is being cut from so many much needed services. Why should we fund third toilets because women don't want trans in their toilets and trans that don't pass don't want to use the men's.