Museum of London - why female-only toilets were so important

[pearlkent]

I was just looking up the history of female-only public/workplace toilets, so that I could quote it back to my supposedly-feminist (born in the 1960s, all went to university in the early 1980s) friends who just don't seem to be aware of the the impending erasure of women's rights, and I found this great link:

www.museumoflondon.org.uk/discover/womens-right-work-toilet-bathroom-victorian-london-wwi-factory-protest

The message really needs to get out to ALL women, especially in this 100th anniversary year ("Year of the Woman" - yeah right), that we are about to lose so much that previous generations fought for.

What's the solution for non-binary people
What's a non-binary person? Everyone is either male or female. The segregation is by sex, not gender identity or how you dress.

Non binary people can use whatever facility they feel suits them most at the time.

The fact is non binary is just non feminine women. They're not going to use the blokes are they. Non binary men still look like men so belong in the men's.

Don't try to make this a feminist issue, men are loosing out as well, they need a private place away from women.

Also women who identify as men will be using the men's toilets.

Actually the law says that those who are protected in the gender reassignment category of the EA may use whichever facility they choose.

If you think about why the UN is working to convince governments to provide toilet facilities for females so that they can participate safely in the public sphere it might occur to you why women are making a fuss over toilets. We do not wish to be driven out of the public sphere by predatory males as women are in so many other countries.

Non binary people can use whatever facility they feel suits them most at the time

a brilliant solution if you don't give a shit about the wants or feelings of the other people in there....

They actually need disabled toilets and so they are funded and provided

how do you think the 'funding and providing' happened?

the toilet fairies?

did disabled loos spring up like mushrooms?

*how do you think the 'funding and providing' happened?

the toilet fairies?

did disabled loos spring up like mushrooms?*

Well obviously they campaigned for them. What's your point. Trans people don't want or need a third toilet. So you can campaign all you want but they won't get it.

depends what you want dunnit?

you want to relieve yourself in privacy and safety? third space is for you.

if you have other motivations, third space won't work for you.

@Steph and @Wherismy - why do we bang on about toilets, you ask? Well, to summarise I need only two words: Jess + Bradley. Don't do the "Who is that?" rouse, won't wash. That the TRA's haven't renounced that person's actions speaks volumes.

Trans people are already in your toilet.

Banging on about toilets which is frankly a non issue makes a mockery of the whole self id debate.

What do you actually think trans people are going to do in the toilet? Is it somthing any guy in drag could not enter and women's toilet and so now?

And a third space will never happen for toilets. Prisons maybe. But for toilets the cost far out weights the benefit and the need.

thanks for this OP

another thread mentioned that men actually vandalised women's bathrooms when they were first made - does anyone know any more about this? I did google of course but couldn't find anything, so wonder if anyone knowing the history is on this thread?
thanks

What do you actually think trans people are going to do in the toilet?

make them unusable for female members of some strict religious groups?

Is it somthing any guy in drag could not enter and women's toilet and so now?

but now that guy in drag would hopefully be challenged

What do you actually think trans people are going to do in the toilet? Is it somthing any guy in drag could not enter and women's toilet and so now?

The result of the change in law would be that it would no longer be legal for women to object to men in the women's loo. Given what is happening now there will no longer be a women's loo and we will be driven from the public sphere by predatory and abusive men.

This claim that men have always been in the women's loo always leaves out the number of times they have been arrested for it. We know why.

make them unusable for female members of some strict religious groups?

Transwomen are already in women's toilets, are religious women not using them now.

but now that guy in drag would hopefully be challenged

So if a guy in drag entered a woman's toilet and exposed himself in the communal area he would be challenged right. If self id comes in he will still be committing an offence by exposing hinself so can still be challenged.

I'm also against self id but the toilet thing is not the issue. A quite toilet such as an empty train station is dangerous now, anyone can enter. A busy toilet such as a shopping centre your safe regardless because there is cctv on the door, security guards and lots of people coming and going. Toilets also have locked cubical and trans woman up to no good outside the cubical will still be committing an offence and will get in trouble.

Changing rooms are different because we have a communal area. How do you challenge what's just getting changed and what's flashing your penis for sexual gratification. But think about it logically, there's nothing they can do in a toilet that they can't already do and the repercussions remain the same.

Plus this thread isn't actually talking about self id but suggesting no trans people should be in a women's toilet they should have a third space. I'm saying a third space is unnecessary as the system we have now works fine. You are a woman or look pretty much like a woman you use the women's. You look like a bloke regardless of what you are wearing (jess Bradley) you use the mens.

Transwomen are already in women's toilets, are religious women not using them now.
Yes. Some women are prevented from using mixed sex spaces and services.
You can sneer, but some women have their lives restricted. Women only spaces and services allow them to participate in everyday life.

So if a guy in drag entered a woman's toilet and exposed himself in the communal area he would be challenged right.
'A man in drag' is a transphobic description, if the man says he identifies as a woman.
There might be a woman in there alone who is too scared to challenge him.
There might be a woman suffering a miscarriage who just wants privacy.

Your solution requires women to be harmed before any action is taken. Why not fight for a third unisex space? Everyone who feels comfortable sharing can use that one. You can show the rest of us how safe and inclusive it is.

But Jess Bradley won't use the men's. JB argued that they would use the women's.

Because Jess Bradley identifies as a woman.

That's the difference between gender reassignment being the protected characteristic (ie. India Willoughby using the women's) and gender identity "I identify as a woman, you have to accept my beard and lady-peen".

It's the Jess Bradleys I want NOT to be in the women's loos. Because they are a perv (allegedly).

I don't care that they can already use it. I want eventually for the women's multi cubicle toilets to be ruled out as an option for males to use and a third space to be mandatory for service providers.

I don't care if you see it as unrealistic or that self interested male anti woman activists won't campaign for it.

It is the only way to protect women's rights to privacy and dignity and safeguard female children when they are vulnerable.

I’m pretty sure Jess Bradley and co would be screaming “transphobia” at the suggestion they use the men’s. They would not accept that they look like men, they want access to the women’s.

They don’t care about how it makes women feel.

Because there are voyeurs around who enjoy listening to women in the toilet. I don't know why it gets them off so much - but it does.

And worse - there's the bloke who posted about wiping pre-cum on the toilet rolls and winding them back up so the next user got it on them, or the one that rummaged through sanitary bins to get used pads to wear (and he was in a community talking about it, so he's not the only one).

And yes, the problem isn't transexuals, who are who the original 'gender-reassignment' clause were written for, the problem is the new wave of transgenders who don't intend to do much more than wear a blouse, and it's women and transexuals who are being used by them as human shields so they can exert control and access women's spaces for sexual kicks.

Yes, much worse, than just 'listening' goes on, I know.

Can I just say to Wherismymind it's intensely annoying to have the "transwomen are already in your loos" argument thrown at us, as a reason or justification that any Tom, Dick, Harry or Jess Bradley should therefore be able to use them.

I have seen transwomen in women's toilets - but I have never yet seen a man, who presents as male, or clearly is male, saying "but I identify as a woman" in there - and I'd like it to stay that way.

There was a recent segment about this on R4's 'Making History' :
"Iszi Lawrence is in Fitzrovia with writer, broadcaster and Victorian historian Kathryn Hughes to find out why the lack of public toilets meant women were so inconvenienced in the Victorian and Edwardian period. What lay behind the then-accepted notion that women shouldn't "go" in public?"

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3309317-Radio-4-Making-HIstory-A-history-and-background-to-the-first-public-loos-for-women

Can I just say to Wherismymind it's intensely annoying to have the "transwomen are already in your loos" argument thrown at us, as a reason or justification that any Tom, Dick, Harry or Jess Bradley should therefore be able to use them.

I'm not saying any tom dick and harry should be in the womens. I'm saying the system we have his works fine. I'm saying a third space will be expensive and ineffective. Transsexuals would still use the womens ,transgenders off the back of that would use the womens and the unisex loo would just be non binary and men's. Transgenders won't use it because they don't want too,and who's going to force them? The police that no longer respond to burglaries?

What I'm saying is why throw transsexuals out of the womens when they're not causing any harm and force them into unisex toilets. Yes self ID is wrong, no men should not be allowed in womens toilets unchallenged, but this hysteria around toilets is trivialising the more pressing issues around self ID. Jess Bradley is breaking the law getting her cock out in the communal part of a toilet self ID or not. Transgenders are already in the ladies, are we having massive problems? Self ID could create problems, so yes stop that but a third space isn't needed if we don't have self ID.

A man in drag' is a transphobic description, if the man says he identifies as a woman.
There might be a woman in there alone who is too scared to challenge him.
There might be a woman suffering a miscarriage who just wants privacy.

That's not what I said. I said any man could get into drag and enter a woman's toilet now, pre self ID. So these issues you refer to are not post self ID issues. They're present now. Toilets arnt a safe space. A third toilet will not make womens a safe space, it's pointless. I've been followed into a toilet and harassed by a man, there was no magic to stop him and a third space won't stop him.

Toilets aren't safe so let's make them even less safe.