Museum of London - why female-only toilets were so important

[pearlkent]

I was just looking up the history of female-only public/workplace toilets, so that I could quote it back to my supposedly-feminist (born in the 1960s, all went to university in the early 1980s) friends who just don't seem to be aware of the the impending erasure of women's rights, and I found this great link:

www.museumoflondon.org.uk/discover/womens-right-work-toilet-bathroom-victorian-london-wwi-factory-protest

The message really needs to get out to ALL women, especially in this 100th anniversary year ("Year of the Woman" - yeah right), that we are about to lose so much that previous generations fought for.

Reading this it really reminds me what a disingenuous, solipsistic argument ‘I just want to pee in peace’ is.
It takes no account of others’ feelings nor the documented antisocial behaviours and crimes that males boast of (and are convicted of) in female toilet spaces.

Why should women have to welcome men into single sex women’s spaces, however they indentify? We’re the ones that will suffer as and when it does go horribly wrong. Prevention is common sense and way, way better than cure here.

I'm not saying any tom dick and harry should be in the womens. I'm saying the system we have his works fine
Wherismymind

This article was published yesterday. Two girls aged 10 and 12 were seriously assaulted:

(extract)
"the accused had been to the toilets with a carer and was walking towards the exit when the young child walked past.

Miss Lumsden said: “The accused (said their) mobile phone was still in the toilets and returned to them, alone.

“The young girl was in a cubicle and was sitting with her leggings and pants down when she saw a hand holding a mobile phone over the partition wall.

“The girl shouted and the person rushed out of the adjacent cubicle.”

The young girl then left the toilets and was described as looking “shocked”. The matter was reported to the police who retrieved in-store CCTV footage from the time of the incident.

Investigators were able to identify the teenager, whose accommodation in Kirkcaldy was searched.

A 12-second video clip of the girl on the toilet, followed by footage of the teenager running away, were recovered when an iPad and a mobile phone were seized.

A second incident took place at the Morrison’s store in Kirkcaldy on March 4.

The court was told a 10-year-old girl had been inside the toilets while her father waited outside.

Miss Lumsden said: “The complainer’s dad then heard his daughter screaming and came running out of the bathroom, looking as if she was running away from someone.

“She explained that a crazy man with long hair was in the bathroom and had grabbed her face and pushed her into a cubicle, before demanding she take her trousers off.

“She said the person had said they would stab her mum. She was upset and inconsolable.”

Police officers attended and found the cubicle locked inside the female toilets.

A male voice was heard coming from inside, saying: “I’ve been silly. I bumped into her. I’ve been silly.”

www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/fife/702003/fife-teen-on-sex-offenders-register-after-supermarket-child-attacks/

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3329936-teen-films-girl-in-toilet

Do many women really strugglr to hold it like that? Genuinely curious. I rarely need the loos while out (only when I have forgotten to go before leaving the house). Do you think that corsets maybe made it harder to avoid using the loops for more than a few hours? Interesting project though.

Also re gender neutral toilets point they are a magnet for sex pests. They had these at my univesity in one of the buildings. People only went there for sex.

Christ R0wantrees, your last post is terrifying

ReluctantCamper

It is so serious and for anyone who says 'there's no problem' this case exemplifies exactly what the very worst problem can be.

It is also terrifying that the wider implications of this case do not seem to have been picked up on.

It is a matter of child protection & needs serious, nuanced consideration.

Its the Fife Courier!

Toe: Because men's toilets are grim. Men wee on the floor.
Yep. Where I used to live, the local council made all the new public toilets single-cubicle neutral ones (a row, all with doors outside). Basin inside.

I used them a week or so after the opening, was ok-ish. Within about a month, they all stunk, locked in a small room with that man pee smell. Even the worst of women's public toilets were never as bad as that.

Yes, much worse, than just 'listening' goes on, I know.
Yes, reminds me of this one, Joel Hardman, who put on a rubber mask and wig to make audio recordings of women urinating. And photographing their feet under the door(!).

More recently, the Korean spycam scandal. And the attacks above, on young girls.

Men have already shown us why we don't want them in our spaces. Many times. Anyone agitating for more males to come into our spaces has no regard for women and girls' safety.

R0wantrees

But your proving my point thar toilets arn't a safe space anyway. Its not transwomen that are the problem. Anyone can enter a toilet to harass women and girls. A third space won't fix that and self id won't dramatically make it worse because we already have these issues. The only way you can make a toilet safe is to have someone guard it. And let's face it that's not going to happen.

Self id could make it worse but most of the arguments around why self id will impact women's toilets are things that already happen now.

Wherismymind

Why do you suppose the article has so consistantly used gender neutral descriptions eg the accused, the teenager, the person, my client etc and use of pronoun 'their' whilst also including reported speech "She explained that a crazy man" "A male voice was heard" ?

Anyone can enter a toilet to harass women and girls. A third space won't fix that and self id won't dramatically make it worse because we already have these issues

Why do you think the 10 year old's dad waited outside?

The convicted person is reported as having been accompanied to the supermarket with their carer and "been in the social care system from the age of three"

The father of one of the girls waited outside whilst she used the toilet. This is commonplace for girls of these ages who are with their father (or male adult). The father might well expect that this was a single-sex space.

If a father is out shopping with his daughter and she needs the loo, what should they do?

Why do you suppose the article has so consistantly used gender neutral descriptions eg the accused, the teenager, the person, my client etc and use of pronoun 'their' whilst also including reported speech "She explained that a crazy man" "A male voice was heard" ?

Yes and we don't have self id. These issues already exist. How would a third space stop it? As I said, any man can slap on some drag and enter a toilet. There is litrially nothing stopping them. Third spaces and self id don't change that.

Why do you think the 10 year old's dad waited outside?

I don't understand this comment. Are you saying her dad should be able to enter the toilet to protect her?

Yes and we don't have self id. These issues already exist

This is your response on Mumsnet FWR board discussing the serious case of two young girls being sexually assaulted in supermarket toilets apparently by a male teenager who it seems likely does not identify as a man?

This is your response on Mumsnet FWR board discussing the serious case of two young girls being sexually assaulted in supermarket toilets apparently by a male teenager who it seems likely does not identify as a man?

What's your point. We were discussing for and against a third space. My point is a third space would be expensive and ineffective and its not going to happen.

You brought up an incident of a possibly trans male sexualy assaulting two girls. I said this proves my point that toilets arn't a safe space regardless of self id.

So what's your point?

Nowhere is a 100% safe space - not even our own homes.

Safeguarding rules gives us the best chance of making spaces as safe as possible - and one of those safeguards for women has been single sex spaces.

No, it won't stop every man going into a ladies toilet ever - but what it means is that women can challenge men in a ladies toilet.

With self ID - we won't even be able to do that - because he will just be able to say "I identify as a woman" and be allowed to stay.

Rowan's linked news story shows that this is a risk to women and girls.

ToeToToe

I'm with you, I'm against self id. I don't want men to be able to go into women's toilets unchallenged.

But what I'm saying is a third space is pointless. Trans people don't want it and so won't use it.

Toilets arn't particularly safe now anyway. So using toilets as an argument against self id is a bit pointless.

For example : trans women could enter a woman's toilet for sexual gratification reasons if we allow self id.

• men either posing as women or not already enter womens toilets for sexual gratification. As Rowntrees article illustrates. So self id becomes irrelevant. What is relevant is men being sexual preditours and the law doing nothing about it. Self id isn't the issue here, men being able to harass women unchecked is the issue. They don't need self id to do that. If the toilet is in a quiet area they don't even need to dress as a woman.

I'm suggesting provision remains on the basis of sex. What are you suggesting?

I'm suggesting provision remains on the basis of sex. What are you suggesting?

If you look and act like a woman or are a biological woman you can use the ladies.

Clearly male bodied people regardless of how they are dressed should use the men's. Which is the system we are supposed to have now.

Except - TAs are arguing it should be based on self-identification of gender identity, not biological sex or whether you "pass" as a woman or not.

So any man can say he feels like a woman - then he is a woman. The feelings of men - or rather their 'internal gender identity' - are being put above women and girl's safety.

I don't understand this comment. Are you saying her dad should be able to enter the toilet to protect her?

No, I'm saying that there is a reason he didn't go in. The social contract that males shouldn't access female spaces. Perhaps we should get rid of sex segregated toilets entirely if we're going to allow some males in?

Third space is the only fair way. I don't want any males in female spaces. They should stop using them as a validation tool.

Very few of these male people "look and act as a woman". If they really did no one would know, would they?

What do you actually think trans people are going to do in the toilet?

make them unusable for female members of some strict religious groups?

Which groups, precisely? Are those groups currently boycotting public toilets given that they are undoubtedly used by transgender people? How would you propose to remedy that? Should their religious beliefs trump the right of someone like Jan Morris to use the Ladies?

If Jan Morris is not seen as male then self evidently Jan can use the ladies loo by stealth. If Jan Morris looked obviously male then Jan Morris should not be using the ladies loo as it's a violation of women's boundaries and a domineering male act which shows thoughtlessness about the feelings, privacy and dignity of women.

It's really quite simple.

So it's what you look like that dictates it? A rapist who can make himself look convincingly like a woman is in the clear, whereas a post-operative transwoman who isn't deemed to look female is unacceptable?