High court refuses gender neutral passports

[OunceOfFlounce]

Seems like a little reason to be cheerful this Friday perhaps?

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-44575229

Tfft!

I just came on to say that, Radio news!

This might give different info, it was from before the decision!

www.aol.co.uk/news/2018/06/21/high-court-judge-to-rule-on-gender-neutral-passports-case/

I don't really see the point of having gender on passports at all, to be honest.

Yeah - it’s not really that relevant (and as we can see, isn’t a reliable security check as it can be changed). I’d rather everyone had sexless passports.

Hooray! Another person here who doesn't understand why the passport office needs to know about some mystical nebulous inner essence (or your ambivalence/'neutrality') towards it.

Brilliant but she/he's appealing - this person obviously has really serious body dysphoria and changing a passport ID won't help in them feeling better - they have gone from a woman - man - X, with breasts and womb removed along the way. It seems to me like a classic case of someone trying to control others, to validate their reality of feeling out of control and out of step with others. A lot of displaced anger onto others ...I imagine.

Taken from the independent

Justice Baker said all departments will need to make a clear distinction between the concepts of sex and gender...

I don't see how, if it's possible to change the sex on a passport, it's not possible to have no sex at all. And if they mean gender as I understand it, why it's necessary to record at all.

But it does mean that there is now a clearly recognised need to look at he issue and to clarify the terms... which is what is needed...

Tha language used is so hyperbolic. Elan-Cane describes it as ‘the denial of existence’. It REALLY ISN’T! Gender is like ‘tea or coffee or neither?’ - it doesn’t matter! Bio sex is recorded for various reasons and cannot be changed.

I don't get the angst of having M or F on your passport, much as it is referred to as gender, lets be honest, it's to identify your sex really (until GRC's meant it could be changed).

You cannot identify out of biology, feel whatever you like, but why the fuck do you care so much about about a letter the size of an ant on your passport?

I don't really see the point of having gender on passports at all, to be honest.

Having sex on passports helps airlines work out the loads on passenger flights (using averaged reference data). I know someone who was on a flight where the captain gave the passengers a chice between leaving some of the passengers behind or some of the sports equipment from the hold (to follow on the next flight), but it couldn’t take both because there were too many men on the flight & it had pushed them over the limit. Also a friend on a flight where the company went bust whilst they were in the air (long haul) and they had to count the passengers & calculate whether they had enough fuel to complete the final leg of the flight after a stopover, as the stopover airport would not refuel the plane.

Good.

"but why the fuck do you care so much about about a letter the size of an ant on your passport?"

Some countries won't be safe at all for people with an X in their passport but in many others what gets one through security checks with a minimum of fuss is having a passport which matches one's gender presentation (and genitalia is they use body scanners). If someone's gender presentation is not classically male or female as understood in the country being visited (or changing plane) then an X might reduce the hassle experienced.

News flash - Missing person / person taken ill on flight/body found on baggage carousel.

Do you know this person? Description as follows:
5'8
Short dark hair
Blue eyes
Medium build
Wearing jeans and t-shirt
Errrrr Man! Woman! (Well that's cut the calls to the help line by 50% for starters)

I think a passport needs an identifier to denote who will be responsible for carrying out a cavity search in airport security.

With that in mind, I believe the identifier should be based on bio sex.

A person legally designated x or neutral would presumably need to be searched by a security person of the same classification, it would be their right under the 2010 act, I believe.

Agreed Betty, the M or F should be left, and should match biological reality.

If someone has reassignment surgery, instead of changing the M to F or vice versa, why not have a code or some kind of denoter on the passport that will reference this, then any incidents as described by Snappity could be reduced.

Safer for all to have bio sex, F/M and then an extra symbol for those who present unusually (at their request) to avoid unnecessary indignities.

Does anybody actually give a damn about this?! Why does it matter

Of course we should have this reference! Otherwise there could be major security breaches

Cross post. Totally agree.

The sex marker and gender presentation markers could be made so they are only seen under the special security light, if privacy is the sticking point?

Given the million and one possible genders, I would not have gender on passports at all. Sex, well you could have M/F/prefer not to say, and then some additional 'hidden' info. Sex is relevant for travel and security as regards body searches, and if you get arrested, how will they know where to house you?

Interesting that I don't have such a problem with this person as with the other styles of trans activists, I suppose because they are not seeking to take anything from me, but asking, in effect, for a third space of their own. I can see why other countries that have a cultural history of third gender etc would be okay with X on passports. But don't call it gender, or we'll run out of letters pretty quickly!

body found on baggage carousel
You've obviously had some interesting flights..........

Great stuff. I hope this gets the discussion going.

No reason to record gender. Many reasons to record sex.

Do airport security staff really check sex on passports before carrying out searches? I'd be surprised, but then so many things surprise me these days.

You can already change the "sex" (as it says, not "gender") on your passport with a Deed Poll and a letter from your GP saying you are serious about it. You don't need a GRC or to have any sort of medical diagnosis or treatment.

It is therefore pretty much meaningless if anyone were to rely on a passport to determine someone's (biological) sex.