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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

When do you give up????

76 replies

northernruth · 19/09/2011 18:13

Am a member and a mod on another forum. Two posts this week have made me seething mad. One a post asking for help with sex drive in which the OP admitted that her DP has forced her "to have sex when I have said no" and that "sometimes he hurt me" but "all that is in the past and I forgive him".

Obviously a couple of us waded in crying rape and asking her to get help/ advice at which there was a big hoo har about how we "weren't helping" and how "the OP wants to move on" and we "needed to be more supportive".

WTF?

Then the latest is that the forum's resident smug cow someone came on saying that she'd just watched porn with her partner for the first time in 12 years and she "couldn't understand why we haven't done it before".

Honestly, when do you give up? by which I mean, are there times when you don't even bother wading in because you know your words will fall on deaf ears or you'll be dismissed as a "ranting feminist"?

OP posts:
Tchootnika · 19/09/2011 18:21

You say what you have to say, try not to get upset and let it go, I suppose.

At least it's on a forum (and the thread doesn't get deleted), then the OP can look at exactly what's been said over and over again.

I think the most 'successful' posters tend to be those who can post one or two extremely well worded posts that take into account other posts (and point out that they're doing this) without becoming too heated. (There are a couple of MNers who do this amazingly well.)

What else can you do? i think if your posts are too 'passionate' (can't think of a better word) then some troubled OPs might feel 'controlled' or bullied on some way, or maybe it just raises too many difficult feelings for them, so I suppose at some point you have to step back and hope they'll read the thread in the cold light of day, and make the best decision for them.

Grumpla · 19/09/2011 18:23

NEVER GIVE UP!!!

Accept that sometimes individuals will not, or cannot listen to what you are saying, but don't stop saying it.

If they dismiss you as a ranting feminist, so what?

People fighting against injustice of every kind have always been dismissed and shouted down. It's part of the process. It doesn't make you a failure.

You may not be able to persuade every single person to think or act differently, but even if you just help one person, isn't that worth doing? The OP may prefer to listen to the more "supportive" rape deniers on her thread now - in a few years time maybe she will look back and see YOUR advice as the moment that a tiny seed of doubt was planted in her mind about what her partner was doing to her and whether she had to accept it or not.

AliceWyrld · 19/09/2011 18:24

Well I never give up, but sure I don't pick up on everything as it would drive me mad. When I have the stamina I guess. I also often say what I want to say, but don't get caught up. That way you get to challenge the crap but don't get worn down every time. Of course sometimes I do get caught up Grin but can't do so every time.

AliceWyrld · 19/09/2011 18:26

Can I just add to that that I do think people who don't give up are important too. I don't want to downplay that. It's a vital strategy to challenge those entrenched views.

AliceWyrld · 19/09/2011 18:26

Argh multiple posts. Grumpla, yes seeds, agree with that lots. Seeds are very important.

DontCallMeFrothyDragon · 19/09/2011 18:30

You don't give up. Ever.

I'm a member of a well known media forum, and use the soap opera section regularly. A few people seem to think I'm a batshit crazy "feminazi". A few are just confused. But then, the time I got reminded why I fought so long nd hard was when I told someone that their post made complete sense, and she replied "that's an honour, coming from you". People may not always be vocal about their agreement with you, but sometimes people appreciate the voice that won't go away, no matter how hard the misogynists fight.

LRDTheFeministDragon · 19/09/2011 18:32

Don't give up, but walking away for a bit isn't giving up. Sometimes you need to walk away for your on sanity I think.

And I agree with the 'seeds of doubt' - so true. Someone else described it as being a bit like a drip, drip effect - eventually it gets through.

Original poster
northernruth · 19/09/2011 18:33

Actually the OP has asked for the threads to be deleted but has since "come out" (they were anonymous posts) and has also said we have given her something to think about.

On the porn thread I have just stated my case (degrading to women, pervades society, desensitises men to "real" sex) and won't go back to it I don't think. Often I feel that as I'm not really an educated feminist (I am educated, but not well read at all in feminist theory) that I can't risk getting drawn into a debate as someone will get the better of me.

And I don't mind someone thinking I'm a ranting feminist, just that it's all very depressing. But I take the point about seeds.

OP posts:
Tchootnika · 19/09/2011 18:35

northern - you don't have to be 'well read' to make sense! Please don't ever 'give up' because of that...

LRDTheFeministDragon · 19/09/2011 18:36

Oh, that's brilliant about the first one!

I find the porn argument really hard to work out too - like you, I don't feel educated enough to tackle it. But IMO just having someone say 'erm, no, porn isn't necessarily brilliant' is good in itself. I'd never heard the idea before I came on MN, not a whisper.

Tchootnika · 19/09/2011 18:42

The point with the porn argument is that you can read all the 'research' you like, no one knows the answer, anyone who tries to argue conclusively either way can be instantly refuted by more research, evidence, etc.

  • and a logical point: how could anyone ever have a definitive answer?

I really think you have to go with your instincts on that one - which most people probably do, but because very few people want to say "I feel this way because [genuine personal response to porn, rather than attempt to sound 'learned and dispassionate]", most people lose their moxy or storm off in a huff, and arguments tend to be unproductive.

Trust me, I know this to be true!

DontCallMeFrothyDragon · 19/09/2011 18:42

Oooh, no, I enjoy the "raving feminazi" claims... Reminds me of how I thought of feminism before I started reading up on it. Grin

WRT the Porn argument, I can provide a few links if that helps? But I do agree, just someone saying "no, porn isn't necessarily brilliant" can be a great help.

I found this site quite thought provoking, and it allowed me to make my mind up as to how anti-porn I was It does bring a bit of Christianity into it, but I take that as how the survivors of the industry chose to cope.

Original poster
northernruth · 19/09/2011 18:52

I do think that with the anti porn thing it's easy for people to dismiss you as uptight/ "frigid" - which is a whole other can of worms Angry

OP posts:
StewieGriffinsMom · 19/09/2011 18:58

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
northernruth · 19/09/2011 19:14

I just posted this in response to her comeback "I'm just disappointed and saddened that anyone does it [pron] at all. " to which she responded "(giggle emoticon) fair enough".

Silly little bint. I love that comment about people wearing fur from the Angry Girl website.

OP posts:
Original poster
northernruth · 19/09/2011 19:23

I just have it all the time at work too (when I'm working) and any rant produces the inevitable PMT comment..........FWIW me and one other guy are always pulling them up on casual racism as well.

See what I mean about depressing?

OP posts:
AliceWyrld · 19/09/2011 19:23

Yeh stock answers are good. And you don't need to be well read, so don't give up on that count.

Another good resource for the porn thing is here for when people say all men are into porn.

DontCallMeFrothyDragon · 19/09/2011 19:25

Thanks for the link, Alice :)

Original poster
northernruth · 19/09/2011 22:19

Thanks ladies. The OP on the Porn thread has asked for it to be deleted as "it was only meant to be lighthearted" and someone else has come on the thread moaning about "usual over-reaction"

Fortunately I'm not a lone voice, there's another vocal feminist on there and a good many who disagree with porn but can't quite articulate why IYKWIM. But there are also a few who say "good on yer" as if it's some kind of badge of honour ffs.

OP posts:
AliceWyrld · 19/09/2011 22:20

I bet there's a whole stack of people who are thinking, 'oh I am allowed to think that' too, cos you were brave enough to say it.

Original poster
northernruth · 19/09/2011 22:27

And now they're all on facebook slagging me off..........

OP posts:
AliceWyrld · 19/09/2011 22:29

Does it help to say that's cos you've riled them by challenging what they assumed was just the way of the world, which means you did a good thing?

Original poster
northernruth · 19/09/2011 22:33

Not really Alice, but thanks for trying Sad

OP posts:
AliceWyrld · 19/09/2011 22:34
Sad
Original poster
northernruth · 19/09/2011 22:42

I'm only sad because I thought they were my friends, and one opinion they don't agree with and we're back to the schoolground

OP posts: