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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

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Original poster

When do you give up????

76 replies

northernruth · 19/09/2011 18:13

Am a member and a mod on another forum. Two posts this week have made me seething mad. One a post asking for help with sex drive in which the OP admitted that her DP has forced her "to have sex when I have said no" and that "sometimes he hurt me" but "all that is in the past and I forgive him".

Obviously a couple of us waded in crying rape and asking her to get help/ advice at which there was a big hoo har about how we "weren't helping" and how "the OP wants to move on" and we "needed to be more supportive".

WTF?

Then the latest is that the forum's resident smug cow someone came on saying that she'd just watched porn with her partner for the first time in 12 years and she "couldn't understand why we haven't done it before".

Honestly, when do you give up? by which I mean, are there times when you don't even bother wading in because you know your words will fall on deaf ears or you'll be dismissed as a "ranting feminist"?

OP posts:

AmandaCooper · 19/09/2011 23:55

MarginallyNarkyPuffin · 20/09/2011 00:00

If an open forum had a section entitled FF, what would lead a person to repeatedly post on it criticising FF? Why would someone feel drawn to do that, thread after thread. What do you think they would be getting out of that?

scottishmummy · 20/09/2011 00:07

look ditch the ff metaphors
this is an open topic, and inherent in that is concordant and non concordant pov. are you thinly trying to hint i criticise post on fem topics?

well,lets see

yes and no

evidently if i agree with post i concur
and if i disagree i demur
...kind of obvious really

thats how discursive forums go
there is no assumption of confluence here or anywhere else on mn

MarginallyNarkyPuffin · 20/09/2011 00:29

Even Seeker thinks MIL's are out of line occasionally.

DioneTheDiabolist · 20/09/2011 00:40

I'm not sure about when you should give up OP, but I think that it is certainly time to take a break when you cease seeking to change society through challenging its attitude to women. And instead look to interfere in such personal issues as: forgiveness and what women find erotic.

Feminism is about equality, not homogeny.

Original poster

northernruth · 20/09/2011 20:07

Is there not a feminist stance on porn then?

I wasn't trying to interfere with personal issues of forgiveness - that was up to the OP on that particular thread. I was merely suggesting that her issues with sex were not indicative of an inherent problem within herself (as society leads us to believe) but rather may have been linked to the traumatic experiences she has had at the hands of her DP.

As for what women find erotic, that's entirely up to them, but I was merely asking whether any of the consumers of the "erotica" had taken any time to consider who may have been harmed in the making of such.

Interestingly enough, the naysayers on FB basically said "if we want your opinion we'll ask for it", "if you don't like porn don't watch it" and there was a lot of snidey nerner na ner ner stuff going on.

It is a women's forum and until recently any mention of porn was met with derision so I'm not sure what's changed.

As for the woman who judges herself on her dress size, she has recently lost a lot of weight altho she always seemed very confident at a larger size so I don't understand why she's suddenly got obsessed with thinness as a badge of sexual attractiveness (she met and married her DH before losing it)

And no, I can't imagine having a clue at the end of a night where I stood on the thinness scale. I'm way too far off the drink scale.

OP posts:

Tchootnika · 20/09/2011 20:11

Have a look at Feminists Against Censorship, ruth.

No, there is not a single 'feminist stance against porn'.

AliceWyrld · 20/09/2011 20:15

'Is there not a feminist stance on porn then?'

Depends who you ask. There are indeed people who call themselves feminists who are pro porn. But there are plenty of people who see feminism as a fun kool badge, without the politics. And there are also plenty of feminists who would say being pro porn is not a feminist stance.

depends how you define feminist. whether it's cos someone calls themselves one, or whether it's exhibiting a set of beliefs.

Original poster

northernruth · 20/09/2011 20:15

Told you I wasn't well read

OP posts:

AliceWyrld · 20/09/2011 20:19

I don't think that's to do with not being well read northernruth. The pro porn feminists are ime pretty peripheral and not part of mainstream feminism.

Original poster

northernruth · 20/09/2011 20:32

Ah ok that's what I thought. Not a fan of censorship personally but also not a fan of denial - and the only rebuttals I got to my arguments about porn were "well I like it so there".

I don't really care what they think tho it's just easy to get caught up in the argument. I've stepped away from the FB discussion now but I'd challenge it again on the forum if it came up

OP posts:

AliceWyrld · 20/09/2011 20:39

I'm not keen on censorship either. For me the discussion is way beyond 'should we ban porn or not'. I want to live in a world where porn just doesn't make sense, so we wouldn't be having the conversation about banning. In the meantime, you end up compromising.

Original poster

northernruth · 20/09/2011 20:41

I think it's become so "normal" that it can be laughed about as harmless by a bunch of women who would say they were compassionate etc. I wouldn't ban it but I will happily try to make people think twice about whether it's acceptable - attack the demand not the supply.

OP posts:

Tchootnika · 20/09/2011 20:46

I think we're unlikely to get to a stage where porn doesn't make sense, but while there is an industry, it could certainly be made bearable for women who work in it, as other industries have been developed and regulated to protect workers: TUs, proper contracts, etc.

ISWYM, Alice about 'fun kool' 'feminists', but I think it's quite dangerous to write them off in this way (if that's what you're doing - sorry if it's not, but it looks a bit like it).

Tchootnika · 20/09/2011 20:48

BTW, ruth, IKWYM also about the 'oh, so you disapprove of porn, it's all harmless, you know (you poor frigid cow)' arguments, to which I would simply reply that if someone thinks porn is harmless, then they clearly haven't seen enough of it.

Have a look at Diana Russell's web site, also, btw.

AliceWyrld · 20/09/2011 20:54

Yeh the fun kool feminists are a tricky one. I see a movement being depoliticised and having its substance removed. This isn't about anyone who isn't a radfem, at all. I'm talking at the extremes where people use the label but aren't willing to acknowledge a problem iyswim. Irl I support a very wide range of feminists, cos I think that's important. I don't write them off, I want to see them be able to grow and develop without someone telling them they're 'doing it wrong'. But I don't support people who abuse the label.

AnyFucker · 20/09/2011 21:04

I don't understand what a Fun Kool Feminist is. I haven't seen/heard that term before. Could someone explain please ?

AliceWyrld · 20/09/2011 21:09

That was just my term AF. Although I can't take entire credit for it. What I mean by it are people who call themselves feminists, align themselves with feminists, cos it's a bit cool and edgy. But they they say stuff that undermines really basic feminist stuff. Not people who are just discovering and finding their feet, but people who just tell you you are entirely wrong, very vocally, when it's a basic feminist position.

AnyFucker · 20/09/2011 21:15

Oh right

Attention seekers/people playing at it, that kinda stuff

Original poster

northernruth · 20/09/2011 21:17

I don't know any Fun Cool feminists (well, I know feminist who are both fun and cool but YKWIM). I more commonly find that I am with women who believe in equality and won't take any shit from men yet refuse to call themselves "feminists" for one reason or another. Usually shaving legs is mentioned

OP posts:

AnyFucker · 20/09/2011 21:17

It just made me prick my ears up. In my clubbing days (a long time ago) I used to use the term "Fun Cool Lesbians" for the women who used to snog/grope other women to get the attention of blokes. Interesting stuff.

Beachcomber · 20/09/2011 21:17

FunFeminists think that stripping is empowerfulizing for example.

In other words they are not really feminists because they are propping up misogyny.

I have never come across a pro-porn feminist argument that even managed to convince me that it was a feminist argument, let alone convince me of anything positive about porn.

Original poster

northernruth · 20/09/2011 21:22

Thanks for that name Tchootnika, looks like an interesting site.

OP posts:

AliceWyrld · 20/09/2011 21:31

Yeh AF that's a good parallel. Was trying to think of one.

HereBeBolloX · 20/09/2011 21:58

I think the funcoolfems are ones who want to call themselves feminists so that they can appeal to men who like a "girl with balls" "feisty strong woman" or "strong-willed filly" without actually upsetting those men.

Another name for them is eejits.

I dislike the pro porn feminist camp on the basis of what they call themselves alone - sex positive feminists. The very term implies that anti-porn feminists are anti sex. It's that old old technique, of pretending that porn and sex are the same thing and if you're anti one, then you must be anti the other. It's dishonest, disingenuous and despicable and I despise it accordingly.

In answer to your OP, I give up with people I know are never going to listen and I try not to engage directly with them anymore, there's no point. I only ever engage with the same old shit stirrers for the benefit of lurkers and only if I have energy and time. Otherwise, I'd say give up when you feel like it, and then start up again when you're good and ready.

Venceremos!

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