Discussion about Charles Spencer's book - Swan Song : Diana, my sister , Beautiful, Beloved, Hunted.

[BasiliskStare]

I know there is a thread about the theft of some pre publication editions of this book.
This thread is more by way of a book club discussion about the actual book , the text. Threads will go where they will , but my intention is this is more for me to give my opinion on the book and for others who read it or are interested in the book to join in. I have pre-ordered from Kindle (half price otherwise I may not have 😊) But is only available on September 22nd. So a holding place if you like.

I always thought Diana had pushed Raine down the stairs as a teen too!

Raine was 60 years old at the time and Diana was 28 and a mother of 2, and it was completely intentional from the sounds of it.

This sums up what I instinctually thought about Diana's personality all along tbh. That together with

• shagging married men when she could have had any single man she wanted,
• trying to bring down the institution that gave her so much fame when she could have just gone off to live a quiet life with millions, the kids and a new man after the divorce involving herself with projects at her whim,
• her tantrums, crying and histrionics, admitting she used her young son as an emotional crutch, and involving him in adult stuff, she was also quite derogatory towards Harry calling him 'thick' or something publicly so potentially putting one one child on a pedestal and the other not, which could explain Harry's impotent rage at his family as an adult and his obvious jealousy of William.
• she 'threw' herself down the stairs when 4 months pregnant with William in an attempt to get Charles's 'attention', that shows she had a serious personality disorder IMO as most pregnant women have an instinct to protect their babies from early pregnancy. Can't imagine how William felt on hearing that as an adult when the recordings were released as she shared it publicly.

I have respect for Charles that he never had a bad word to say about her and I think he was aware that she was quite deranged but was empathetic to her.

I doubt her behaviour would have been that much different if she'd married into any other aristocratic circle as her status befitted tbh.

You can certainly see where Harry gets it from, and why he ended up with someone with similar personality traits to his mother but much more intelligence and arrogance, and I imagine Diana may well have contributed to his blatant self esteem issues as mentioned above.

Awful woman.

What an image, his fingers appear white from pressure. 😲

That photo of his parents disturbs me a bit.

I confess I may be projecting but it always makes me uncomfortable when a man puts his hand round a woman’s throat or near her mouth.

To me, there is nothing loving or beautiful or spontaneous or passionate about that type of hold.

It is, for me, something else entirely.

I was aiming for an understated comment.

😊

Talking of understated comments - an apology from Charles Spencer:

Well if, as an historian, accuracy is important why the fuck did he get it wrong in the first place? 😂

I see Meghan’s buddy, Laineygossip, has crawled out of the woodwork, loving the CS ‘revelations’, writing a full page diatribe.

That photo is creepy.

Wendy Berry said that both parents loved the boys, with Charles having an special bond with Harry, which surprised me.

Ken W also said they both loved the boys but Charles at the end of the marriage could go a couple of months without seeing them. That was mainly Diana’s fault, she used to change plans so Charles missed out on seeing them. Ken W was also fond of the boys, with Harry being his favourite.

I think Ken had a massive crush on Diana but also knew she was tricky and could be a pain in the proverbial. He didn’t sugar coat her faults despite his regard for her. He resigned (asked to be redeployed) under bad terms, she froze him out and started going awol, he had enough. She wanted rid of any official protection probably because they said no to her a lot, and it was a barrier to what she wanted to do. At the end of her life she seems without wise counsel. She wanted Charles to step aside for William and seemed determined to wreak havoc on the royal family. The establishment of a second court is very Harry and Meghan, echos of the past. There is clear collusion between Harry and Diana’s brother. They are the pincer movement trying to damage the Windsors.

Glad to hear that Diana and the boys had a loving connection with Frances. I suspect that many close friends were used to her volatility, blowing hot and cold and allowed her to flounce and return - many families have to adapt and often inadvertently enable a family member who struggles with sensitivity, vulnerability and emotional regulation.

I wouldn't say she was crazy at all, but I've certainly read several things about Diana over the last few days that have definitely challenged my view of her as being essentially a good, but complicated person.

The most serious really is the issue of her pushing her stepmother down the stairs. I had always assumed that happened when Diana was a child, but I discovered today not only was she actually 28 (and therefore not only an adult but the mother of two small children), but she showed no remorse afterwards, actually saying that it had given her "enormous satisfaction". That's not the behaviour of a complicated woman- or indeed a mentally ill woman- it is dangerous and criminal behaviour, and an ordinary person would probably have ended up with a criminal record, and potentially in prison.

The other two things that I had been unaware of was her treatment of staff (who she froze out, and screamed at if they did something she didn't like- remind anyone of someone?) and the way she treated the partners of the men she had affairs with.

So my opinion of her being basically a good person has really been turned into an awareness of some pretty dark behaviour from her. I certainly wouldn't call her crazy in anyway, I think that would take responsibility away from her for her actions. She did some very unpleasant things though.

I also think it was highly advantageous that copies of Spencer's book being 'stolen' was given a substantial burst of coverage in the media just before the excerpts were published in the DM before it's release.

The DM referred to it as a 'bombshell' book about Charles and Diana, and it had been kept under 'tight security'.

I hadn't heard of it before that.

Hmmm.

I don’t know who this Lainey person is but just read the page referenced, and this bit run true to me. “But this is a man, and a monarch, who has been in a popularity contest with his own children for years, and before that his first wife, so let’s not pretend that he doesn’t know that he’s never been the main character in the room in the presence of the people’s princess and the two princes they made.”

Charles wanted to be King and felt constrained by his mother’s longevity on the throne. Diana came along, they never expected her to be so popular, and Charles was jealous. And I would say even though he has the top job now, the lives on the boys and their familles are more interesting than him and his Mrs. I actually think Camilla has more interest than Charles.

Charles wanted to be King and felt constrained by his mother’s longevity on the throne.

You state that as fact. What is your source?

Other accounts say that Charles didn't want the job a minute sooner and that he didn't want to be more than minimally involved in succession planning.

Also that he regretted having to give up some of the causes he had supported as PofW, either because it would be inappropriate as King, or because he wouldn't have the time.

I think she must have had some sort of personality disorder at least. I guess mentally ill confers an illness that can become better with treatment so it probably wasn't that.

Raine was badly bruised apparently. Diana also allegedly said she wanted to throttle her.

Now I can understand having hateful thoughts about family members who you don't like and who you perceive don't like you, but to actually act on them and in such a way as pushing a much older woman down a flight of stairs and later publicly disclose that's what you did (she didn't need to), especially in her position, shows extremely concerning behaviour.

Especially as she'd 'thrown HERSELF down the stairs' while pregnant some years earlier for attention!

Can see quite clearly why Charles preferred the relative stability of Camilla now.

It's actually made me feel a bit sorry for him.

She wanted rid of any official protection probably because they said no to her a lot

Er, no,

You are missing out that she was shown forged documents, paid for by Martin Bashir who was working for the BBC, in the form of bank statements intended to prove that certain people around her were spying on her and feeding info back to the palace which led to her decision to get rid of police protection and her relationships with trusted staff members such as Patrick Jephson.

A very thoughtful post, @Noodledog.

Having lived through the Diana era, while I could appreciate her good qualities, I was never comfortable with the sudden switch to 'sainthood' that came after her death, with the previous few years apparently completely wiped from people's memory.

She clearly loved her sons, but equally made mistakes with them, and no-one today would advise treating William as she did, as a confidante and comfort to her from such a young age.

I agree with you regarding her behaviour towards the wives of her lovers - and there is overlap again here with her behaviour towards her children.
One story I keep coming back to (partly because I struggle to get my head around it) is the police investigation into over 300 silent phone calls to the Hoares' home.
When the calls were traced (by the Met Police) to Kensington Palace and other lines related to Diana), she suggested that it was a 'teenage boys prank'.
In other words, she blamed her sons (because who else would have had access to those lines?).

Well seeing as Diana and Raine apparently came to a certain understanding and appreciation of one another latterly and lunched together in London in Diana’s later years, then she obviously didn’t take the incident to heart as much as some people on Mumsnet do!

I do want to say (without aiming the comment at anyone in particular) that I am uncomfortable with armchair diagnoses for anyone, be it a member of the Royal Family or family members of posters on other threads.

Was Harry even a teenager then blue? , I assumed she was trying to imply it was William which was worse in my mind!

Many people forgive their abuser, particularly in the context of family relationships. It doesn't make the abuse any less bad.

Lainey is extremely anti-British.

She is even more anti Catherine and can never wait to throw some insult her way. She coined the ‘where’s Wally’ phrase when Catherine was ill and made constant fun of her. She is buddies with Meghan , Omid Scobie, and used to work with the ex husband of Jessica Mulroney. Meghan used to feed her information (maybe still does) and,she would write ‘blinds’. She never has even the remotest criticism of H&M, only sugary positive takes. Has made no comment on them returning to the country she applauded and celebrated them for leaving, but immediately jumps on the CS revelations (which are now looking less and less credible).

Was Harry even a teenager then blue? , I assumed she was trying to imply it was William which was worse in my mind!

Neither of them was a teenager then. According to one account, she suggested it was a prank by a friend of Hoare's son, but since the calls were traced to numbers associated with Diana, that wouldn't be credible.

They were between 92 and 94 so Harry would have been 8-10 and William 10-12

So neither of them were teens yet.

You want to read what was published about about the Oliver Hoare phone call stories in August 2019 for an Australian news outlet.

And note the timing of the stories. And Patrick Jephson’s findings.

“On the pages of Britain’s biggest tabloids, editorials asked such questions as, “Is the Princess of Wales going mad?” and postulated, “She’s a hysterical woman clearly teetering on the edge of a nervous breakdown.”

Or, as Brown has put it: “The net result was that the radiant Diana of the Serpentine was rendered as a nut case who preyed on other women’s husbands.”

All of which mattered, hugely.
Public perception was key to both Diana and Charles as they battled it out for the hearts and minds of the British people. Suddenly, Charles started looking like a more sympathetic creature, having to put up with this woman who was being portrayed as mad and just a bit bad.

Both Diana and Charles fought hard to win over the public’s perception following the incident.

While the pendulum would swing the other way, it was still a deeply embarrassing situation which severely tainted Diana’s reputation. While she had been outed as cheating before, this was the first time she had been so clearly linked to a married man.
Still, there are some strange, unanswered questions about the whole imbroglio.
Patrick Jephson was Diana’s trusted private secretary at the time. He says that when the story broke, “I asked a contact in the Royalty and Diplomatic Protection Group if there had been such an investigation and if there was a printout of the calls made.
“The answer was ‘yes’ to both questions.” However, within 24 hours the printout was missing.”

We will never know the truth. Oliver Hoare passed away on August 23 last year, nearly 24 years to the day the public found out about the calls and his alleged fling with the most famous woman in the world. He never once spoke publicly about the affair.

Daniela Elser
News.com.au

I know what I believe.

Especially when Jephson, who worked closely with Diana’s private secretary, for seven or eight years, spoke publicly in 2017 about an ongoing campaign to boost the then Duchess of Cornwall’s reputation in the public eye ever since her affair with Prince Charles became public knowledge.

“It’s not the palace…but advisors to Prince Charles, who over many years have crafted a systematic, sustained and expensive campaign to rehabilitate Camilla’s reputation and make her suitable to be the next Queen,” he said.

Jephson want on to say,

“This is linked, of course, to a pretty vile campaign to publicise a bogus psychiatric diagnosis that Princess Diana had a personality disorder.”

“This may have cost the Prince a lot of money, paying for PR spin doctors”

“I think it also raises ethical question marks over the methods they (Prince Charles’ PR representatives) have used.”

I think we need to be careful whom we believe.

The palace preparing the ground for a new Queen

Or someone who worked with Diana, day in and day out, in five continents, during very challenging times? Jephson gives a very measured balanced account of his time with Diana and said it wasn’t all easy by any means but that she definitely didn’t have a personality disorder.

Jephson has no reason to lie and when he won substantial damages against the BBC and Martin Bashir he donated them to establish Ty Hafan, a children's hospice in Wales which was one of the last engagements Diana fulfilled before her death. I think his account is very credible.

@bluegreygreen CS's abhorrence for the tabloid press comes across very clearly imho , more so than the RF. Not just for his sister but where it impinged upon him personally. Eg D came to take him out for lunch when he was still at Eton & they were followed by photographers and journalists. Journalists subsequently wanted to interview / get comments from him because he was Diana's brother. Apparently BP invited all the newspaper editors to her service in Westminster Abbey & CS phoned all the tabloid editors to tell them not to come. He refers to Morgan being "surly" so, interesting to see your post.

The segment I referred to re his eulogy , it is interesting how much more invective / powerful , not sure of the right word , against the paparazzi /tabloids his original drafts were than the final draft. Also in the book , he did not read the eulogy at the rehearsal for fear he might be told no by the RF or their staff for the actual time. So he had it with him , but said he did not and just did a sound check.

Just another thought as prompted by comments.

ETA - CS makes very few references to any of D's romantic life after KC (PoW as was ) . He mentions a boyfriend helping the children with their riding and her looking for a house near a famous heart surgery hospital in Cape Town. Dodi he mentions but doubts there was any serious thought of her marrying him.