When all this has calmed down, can we have a proper chat about what MNHQ, actually want please?

[HoneyDragonFucker]

I'd like to know whether the site is moving in another direction. And what that means for some of our important supportive boards.

I've seen some awful threads and posts left up for far to long. I'm also cynical of the IF you report it gets dealt with party line. As it doesn't. The trolling and goading that occurs in Bereavement, FWR, SN and Relationships, is left far too long after it has been reported.

Yet it is very obvious that some posters are either being monitored or targeted by reporters as they are deleted with alarming speed and precision.

With respect it's your site, but I'm buggered if I know what I can and can't say anymore.

Yep, I'm in a permanent state of should I stay or should I go.

I am probably spending too much time here too.
Perhaps it is time for a break.

yes, and when you have a spare minute MNHQ please clarify whether you prefer the standard of discourse to be set by those users manipulating the rules-as-written (sorry, rooooles) or those who embody the spirit of them. cheers.

No one knows how or whether to post just in case they get targeted.

Advice and experience is being decried because it "doesn't fit the spirit of the site".

How often do we see that line trotted out?

Yep, there's been an awful lot of racist and other poking minority groups with a stick threads that have been allowed to stand too.

So many newcomers to FWR section are so obviously just here to inflame and play their little game of 'goad the feminist' -but they stay.

It's a real shame, because for a very short while after 'We Believe You' was launched, things really improved - the Mra trolls were dealt with and banned.

Now, it's worse than ever.

Its not just posters, I've seen a few posts from MNHQ that have made me wince of late too.

I suspect it is because they have been affected too, with repeated allegations of having favourites or cronies.

It just seems like everything on here of late has been reactive.

I'm not naive, I Know mn is a money spinner, and needs revenue, but I don't want to stay if its going to become style over substance.

I believe boards with sensitive dicussions such as Bereavement and Relationships, and FWR - which is often attacked by anti-feminist/MRA goaders - need active moderating. During the night too.

Yes, inconsistency is a big issue with regards to moderation.

Absolutely agree Yoni.

It's time MNHQ stopped saying they are thinking about this, or ideas are in the pipeline. The answer is simple, someone needs to be there to respond quickly. You know like they managed to do when Gok was on.

good question HoneyD

Marking place, v interested in this :)

Excellent idea.

I'd be very interested too.

It would be a lot easier for MNHQ to moderate the site successfully if posters did two things. One is to avoid clear personal attacks. It isn't hard, for goodness sake, even in the most pressing cases. You can easily make very trenchant points very frankly without personal attacks. Then you don't get deleted, suspended, banned. The other is to call a halt to the dangerous business of demanding a wider and wider moderation of "goading." Though there are unacceptably provocative posts (often from men who want to piss on a women's space), especially unwelcome on support threads, they can generally be characterised as personal attacks or trolling and dealt with as such. The term "goading" is an attempt to disallow a much wider category of posts -- it is often used just to mean "stating views that make me feel angry and self-righteous." The logic of requiring MNHQ to take a stand on "goading" is movement in the direction of censoring real and profound disagreements. It is part of a wider dynamic that is leading to the deterioration of online conversation. See this comment piece in the Guardian for a good account of it

Last night on MN was aggressive, over-the-top, and silencing of dissent. I felt it wasn't even worth posting because the atmosphere was such that anything against the general trend of posts would have been attacked as "goading", or even "MRA." I really do think that it is posters who are suppressing high-quality discussion, not MNHQ. I'm sure they need to improve their moderation by higher staff levels, but moderating conversation and thought is very very hard and I think the trend of the site at the moment is to make it harder.

There are some seriously goady people, who when they are retaliated against, report with speed.

One such person I responded carefully to by saying 'I find you so irritating' [she was ponitificating about s/thing she has no experience of, because 'a friend' blah blah].

Now, that isn't a personal attack. I was owning an observation.

I got deleted and warned.

I was thinking the same thing as Artex, it's all gone downhill a bit since Helen left.

Bad decisions being made left, right and centre.

So AnyFucker is being made an example of, but there is a bigger picture here about the deliberate goady fuckers, whiners and foot stampers who appear from nowhere, whine and foot stamp cause tremendous upset and then disappear again, - only to reappear on a different subject but with exactly the same manner of twisty turning slippery sucker pa goady fucker posting.

Do MNHQ know this? Because it's glaringly obvious to many of us and we don't even have the benefit of the inside info of IP details and TSSDNCOP.

They must know, so why do they allow it to continue and allow the persistent targeting to inevitably lead to the good eggs of MN being banned and fucking off?

sorry if this has all been said already, - I have only caught up with this this morning and after the bullying threads nonsense, Christmas cheer spoiling this really is the last fucking straw.

I'm not talking about last night. I'm talking about something I have been discussing for weeks.

It's not the posters that need to think about this its HQ. I highlighted my own post to MNHQ, that did not break any guidelines. They deleted because it was construed as having a dig. I accepted than fine. As the person reporting it was shouting Reported all over the board.

Another poster made repeated attacks against a poster and. MNHQ took ages to delete. Despite people trying to be patient and ignore and continually reporting.

I know for a fact that there are sinister undertones going on at present, people might nc on here, but they don't necessarily on twitter etc, so if they are getting their chums to, for example encourage reporting other posters off board, there is bugger all MNHQ can do because their policy, is quite rightly to deal with incidents on Mumsnet.

I understand that last night seemed all out of proportion to the event ButThereAgain, but why? Why so many different people on different boards upset. Why so many other people suddenly piling in to have a go at the banned poster? I think last nights incident was simply a catalyst. People kicked up because they were already, fed up, resentful and wondering wtf was going on anyway, before yet another high profile telling off from Justine.

It's not just the posters interpretation is it? It's Hqs as well. I think they need to stop fluffing about saying they will deal with this and start doing it.

Excellent post there from ButThereAgain. The term 'goading' is really problematic in itself. It's also being used as an excuse for people making personal attacks, which simply isn't on.