When all this has calmed down, can we have a proper chat about what MNHQ, actually want please?

[HoneyDragonFucker]

I'd like to know whether the site is moving in another direction. And what that means for some of our important supportive boards.

I've seen some awful threads and posts left up for far to long. I'm also cynical of the IF you report it gets dealt with party line. As it doesn't. The trolling and goading that occurs in Bereavement, FWR, SN and Relationships, is left far too long after it has been reported.

Yet it is very obvious that some posters are either being monitored or targeted by reporters as they are deleted with alarming speed and precision.

With respect it's your site, but I'm buggered if I know what I can and can't say anymore.

Will the volunteer moderators do very much more than zap spambots? The level of nuance that seems to be demanded of moderation now, and the staggering levels of aggression towards the moderation would surely not make it possible for volunteers to get involved with anything much more than spam and the very clearest of trolls.

There must be health & safety issues for employers of mods who are subjected to the level of vitriol that is sometimes here. I don't mean that as a joke. In-house staff must have a bit of a support system to minimise the upset. Volunteers would be a bit exposed.

sorry, kate, that was a cross-post, not a question i was expecting you to deal with.

fwiw, and maybe wrongly, I dont think much gets deleted between the hours of 11pm and 9am or even 10am.
And trolls are late night people quite often.

at usual and MaryZ and Fenton

Have to say, I get the distinct impression that mumsnet is run on a bit of a shoestring. Dont know why, whether it is because they havent got much money, or because there are some financially tight people looking after the money. Any orgainsation that is run frugally, is going to mean that users are going to notice.

The volunteer night time moderators instead of paid night time moderators being one example. There are several others.

Yes, tomatoes.

There must be health & safety issues for employers of mods who are subjected to the level of vitriol that is sometimes here. I don't mean that as a joke. In-house staff must have a bit of a support system to minimise the upset. Volunteers would be a bit exposed.

I agree wholeheartedly with that, ButThereAgain.

But I think mods are needed to explain the Talk Guidelines. On-thread, so that the examples of what's on and what's not are very clear.

Cheers Kate I will defiantly post up a few ideas on the web chat.

The support for mods is a very valid concern, that could be somewhat alleviated by how the (possible) mod team is set up and functions, I guess the 'ethos' behind them.

One idea could be a mod 'skype group' or some such structure, that can be accessed by team and another for mnhq, the fist group would could keep a log of all actions, issues and discussion around the forum. This would enable a support structure for the mod team. The other would be enable a brief summery to be passed onto mnhq that requires action or input from them.

I don't know? Will have a think on this and other ideas.
puts on thinking hat

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/1891011-Is-it-time-to-start-paying-for-MN-membership

Have a look there, tomatoes.

I don't really think we need mods as such. I think a lighthanded system worked much better. But it isn't lighthanded any more, possibly because a lot of people are reporting posts that wouldn't have been reported years ago.

I suggested many moons ago (and so did others) that night-time trolling could be dealt with by an automatic thread-stop (or even thread-hide) of any thread that had more than a certain number of unique reports. So if an op is reported by, say ten different poster, it should be frozen or hidden until morning.

The real problem is what you can and can't post. So the last time this came up Justine specifically said that it was ok to say "your post makes you sound like an arse, and here's why", but in fact posts like that are deleted every day.

Realistically, what is happening atm is that pretty much any post that is reported is deleted, even if it is saying "your post makes you sound .....", not just direct personal attacks.

What isn't deleted is the disingenuous "poor me" post types from posters who are deliberately trying to wind other people up, and then reporting their responses.

AF losing her temper and being banned is an example of this type of thing - if someone is deliberately trying to wind up a single poster, has been here a long time so knows what will upset that poster, and goes on and on and on (sometimes under different names), eventually the poster will say "ffs, fuck off you wanker" and get deleted.

It is very hard to stay "the right side of the guidelines" under provocation, especially when the guidelines appear to be a little, erm, flexible applied differently by different hq-ers

I think that is precisely why we need mods to do constant online tutorials about how to interpret/understand the Talk Guidelines.

It has been said on the Af threads that the reason "your post makes you sound" 's are being deleted is because people are clearly using it to get around the rule. Although, yes, i was there too when they said that would be okay (play the ball, not the man!)

I agree that a lot of it is a difference in who the HQer is doing it at the time, as decisions can seem very different from one day to the next about similar problems.

Agree with trish too, its seems odd when Mn is a site that is obviously not just popular in the uk, that they are not paying night shift staff.

I'm very agreeable today

The niceties of what may be just inside the Talk Guidelines or just outside them really are irrelevant, or should be. It's not a game to see how nasty you can be to people without sanctions being applied. And it's nuts for MNHQ staff to spend their time tied up in knots trying to draw a line which should never need to be drawn anyway, if you're not actively seeking to be nasty.

i think ultimate responsibility for a persons actions lies with themselves.

If they feel wound up and want to lash out - the responsibility and judgement of how to deal with that situation is theirs Just as the actions of the people who are winding people up - is their own.

I think it is off to suggest that any posters actions are not their own responsibility. Quite frankly, if it is getting to you that much, you should step away

I've been here 10 years and I really have no idea what all the fuss is about.

indeed

Well put, HellMouth.

tomatoes.

I definitely agree with that Custy. And idea how to convince the late night weirdos though?

I don't get the fuss over 1 poster in millions on MN, who disobeyed the rules, and got a weeks suspension.

I think moderation is as simple as following the guidelines and reporting, and not feeding trolls, or those you think are trolls.

It's very difficult to decide what is "goady" when passions run high, it is however much clearer whether an attack is personal or not.

I don't think anyone gets the fuss that occurred.

But occur it did.

And one person's 'goady' is another person's objective opinion.

If everyone throws their toy out of the pram whenever someone airs and unpopular opinion on a thread then mumsnet would be a very dull place.

We are all grown-ups here. No one 'makes' a poster behave badly to another poster, we are all responsible for our actions and hve to take the consequences - and that may mean some time spent in the sin bin.

And we should all be treated the same, there should not be any posters who have special licence to break guidelines.

Yes you are right. I usually manage to control myself

I think the bullying threads got to me last week, and that's sort of blinding me a bit. There was some horrible personal stuff that didn't get deleted (until the whole thread went in one case), so it did appear that it depended on what was reported, not what was said.

I think if a whole thread is a bunfight, then maybe whichever hq-er comes across it should maybe look at trying to equalise deletions on both sides, rather than just deleting the individual reported post, iyswim. Because I wouldn't report someone calling someone else pompous, or passive-aggressive, or even annoying as a personal attack. But some people seem to take everything as a personal attack.

It can be very difficult to express disagreement on some threads - and we should all be allowed to disagree - without being reported.

Sorry, I don't mean delete equal numbers on both sides - I just mean if someone reports what they think is an attack, and it's deleted, maybe the mnhq-er in charge should have a read of the thread and delete all personal attacks.

I also think that sometimes posts are deleted that shouldn't be - saying someone sounds pompous, or ignorant (when they are saying things that are factually wrong) or selfish, for example, should be allowed. Otherwise it is very hard to get a point across.