Very different siblings - "good kid" "naughty kid" HELP

[HairsprayBabe]

reposting from chat because i got no responses

We have 2 DC very close in age 18m apart - they are currently in primary school. One school year apart.

One child is very well behaved, will sit nicely anywhere we go, plays calmly, Listens, likes helping, never rude etc. Apologetic if behaviour is corrected. Not perfect of course but is generally a "good" child

One child is poorly behaved, doesn't listen, is rude, won't sit, plays rough, won't help, runs off, answers back, unpleasant attitude etc.
Default mode when behaviour is corrected is rage. Has moments of being sweet and lovely but - generally for example referred to as " a real character" at parent eve... aka "naughty"

Both are equally clever, both have been parented the same way. Low screen time lots of time out doors all the things you are "supposed" to do.

We were told they would grow out of the "bad" behaviour if we were consistent but they have been like this since they were about 2 and a half. We have done literally everything we have been told to do, we are strict, we follow up with consequences, we remove them from situations and nothing is changing and it is such hard work.

As they get older I am more and more worried that they are going to absorb everyone heaping praise on the other sibling while they have been cast as "the bad one" Equally I still want to praise and celebrate my other child for their achievements. I am really stressed about "good" child being overlooked, and "bad" child feeling like a black sheep.

Both children are happy and healthy with no concerns raised by professionals..

I don't know what else we can do, I feel like I am letting them both down.

ah, with your more examples I do see a bit clearer what is going on.

kids who have very little self control can be very impulsive. They just do what goes through their mind at the time.

consequences don’t tend to work overly well because they weren’t sitting there making a rational decision to do it in the first place.

the best thing to do they I found was simply not be in the environment. So I never went shopping in person for about two years because one of mine was just very impulsive and would grab things.

their room was cleared of anything we cared about that they could damage - bed was a futon on the floor (couldn’t fall off etc).

in all honesty I’m somewhat in awe that you are taking yours into shops with breakable things it it was a long time before mine could be trusted with that.

One of my kids was a PITA. Regular issues (I went for a job once, and the Deputy Head recognised me - “I remember your dc - he was paddling on a tough-tray - every time a TA tried to get him off he kicked water over them.”). Wasn’t really better at secondary school - though as far as I know he never kicked water over an adult.

Now, well, he’s a final year medical student, and seems tolerably responsible!

@Octavia64yeah shopping in supermarkets was a total nightmare with my son until he was about 5.

In many ways, it is a much harder parenting experience than the norm. Didn’t help that my husband didn’t initially listen to me when I said something wasn’t quite right. I felt very alone for a long, long time.

@Piglet89 is rushing ahead one? We were told at parents eve they often try to start a task before it is properly set leading to them doing it incorrectly. Will never choose a 3* task always picks the easier (quicker) task

I had something a bit similar with mine. It isn’t that either of them are terrible, but my older one can be prone to getting into arguments when out and about (although this is slowly improving) overly boisterous and impulsive. Means you feel a bit constantly on at him. The other was just no trouble.

I don’t see them as a pair either but others do and I can’t really go anywhere with one without taking the other unless I make advance special arrangements. I was worried that it would impact both: that DD would get fed up with DS and DS’s self esteem would be negatively impacted. So I get it. I’m still working on it but maturity is helping a lot here.

@Octavia64 we don't often! but even the supermarkets have Christmas baubles in these days
Lots of those other things resonate, we had to empty their room out when they were a toddler because everything just got destroyed/climbed on broken.

I feel like I have been really stupid here and I should have pushed more when I first had a feeling but everyone told me it was normal

I have two similar to this, OP. Similar family set up etc, and I've also worried about the difference in attention and reinforcement.

Honestly your posts sound like you are a thoughtful, intentional parent. I don't think there is a magic trick you're missing. Some kids are just more challenging to parent .

Incidentally I am getting my wild one assessed for ADHD, but even so I don't expect this to excuse behaviour just possibly to understand better.

I react to their behaviour differently based on what works. And I've had to develop a thick skin to all the side eye comments about my parenting!

Yes, the dyslexia is relevant. There's some overlap and the two conditions often exist in in the same family.

@HairsprayBabehe struggled for the longest time with waiting his turn and he still interrupts me and his father all the time.

What you have described are more classic markers. Must be a shock when you have an older NT child: the experience is completely different.

My youngest broke a couple of those glass coasters they always have on Xmas stalls in our town. I still get twitchy when I walk past a decade later.

I would say “good” child could do more if they are easily doing everything and “bad” child needs considerably more support rather than telling off. On the whole if you are repeatedly telling a child off for the same lack, it’s you who is not scaffolding success for them not they that are falling short.

Getting a diagnosis doesn’t automatically help resolve your issue.
Try to identify what the ‘naughty’ child is struggling with and see what support can be put in place to support those needs.
So they have executive function difficulties it could be they need everything broken down in to smaller steps, need more scaffolding, more prompts and maybe different expectations for their age.
If it’s impulsivity they struggle with then they may need more supervision, maybe clearer instructions and clearer expectations. Maybe limit the situations where you know they will struggle and it’s going to be setting them up to fail for a while.
They might need more processing time, need help with maintaining attention etc.
It almost doesn’t matter in your situation whether they meet the diagnostic threshold for ADHD or autism or any other ND as a lot of the underlying difficulties overlap and can be found with processing, language, memory, sensory issues and/or attention. Obviously a diagnosis is helpful
in many ways but in terms of parenting at home getting the support and understanding of what they struggle with is key.
Once you can pin point what bits they struggle with and make some adaptations and put in better support I think it reframes it and the child isn’t perceived as naughty.

I hate to say this but you need more conversations with school. How often are hey cheeky, disruptive unsettled etc... if I is ND you may see behaviour worsen as the demands of school increase.
Schools don't always spot ND ours insisted child was fine until they really weren't. In our experience fine meant not causing a big issue.

Which ever child it is they are young for ADHD diagnosis ( depending on area) but you could try looks Ng into parenting techniques for ND children and keep a record or behaviours to see if you can track triggers

Ok well if some of this is resonating then what proved (moderately) successful with ours:

they don’t listen. Strategy: get on eye level, say their name. Get them to acknowledge you and then give clear simple 1 instruction. No more complex than that to start with.

the getting attention bit is to make sure they are focused on you, and actually listening. Impulsive kids want to go off and do the thing after the first sentence they don’t listen longer than that.

if you get success in single instructions you can start with two step.

we had issues in the morning so started a morning routine that was always the same. So after a month or so they knew it. Didn’t always like it but did know it.

They hate being corrected: try to fix environment so they don’t have to be. No shops, no supermarkets. We got delivery for many years. Clear bedroom of anything you value. We also cleared living room of anything we valued. It went into storage.

get out into garden/park at every available opportunity. I used to walk mine to school (about a mile) and bike back. They loved walking through the fields and running around. Cycling went down well Also once a bit older.

rude/answering back - try to think how you would want them to talk. Obviously ideally they’d do what they are asked to do, but they are not. I had some success with explaining that he was talking in rude and I needed him to talk in polite. So saying “no I won’t” I got him to say “I’m sorry I can’t right now”. Same message but much nicer to hear!

also did a lot of work on talking about how everyone in the family had to help keep the family working. So mummy and daddy tidy up and cook and wash up and child 1 and child 2 do that as well. At weekends we’d stop playtime and everyone would set the table/put (plastic!) mugs out etc and then we’d eat to together.

they both also liked cutting up carrot etc for the dinner table (obviously heavily supervised with knives). This was more time consuming than just doing it myself but it did help create an “everyone helps” atmosphere.

I could’ve written your post OP, albeit mine are a 6&8. One is exactly as you describe, and I am constantly worried that he feels like he just gets told off or corrected all the time. He is an absolute angel at school, but rushes all his work, and would also pick the easier/quicker work options. Just wants it done! His childminder has also raised a few concerns that he is high energy (understatement). I’m convinced he has ADHD but is high masking at school. We also do low screens, no gaming, lots and lots of exercise, which he loves. But being at home is hard work, as is going out to anything not child focused. He wants to climb, throw, wrestle and play football. Struggles to understand ‘no’ or ‘stop’, its like he’s stuck in hyper mode sometimes, and can’t switch it off. He is wonderful amazing boy, but his brain definitely works differently and he can be exhausting to parent sometimes. I don’t know where to start with referrals/assessments either, as I feel very much like people think ‘he’s just a boy’. But I wanted to say you’re not alone in your worries. My other child is also very ‘easy’, quite compliant, gentle etc.

Have you spoken to the school about the quiet child and if potentially there's something going on there re ND or mental wellbeing?

As the quiet child in this scenario I learnt at an early age to make myself smaller because of how big my sister was. My quietness and following the rules and big "good" was tied up in not wanting to be noticed but also knowing that my sister took up a lot of space and energy. I developed social anxiety and depression around age 8 probably there earlier and was diagnosed with bipolar in my 20s, and neurodiversity has been raised too, autistic burnout along side my bipolar episodes would provide a different view point to some of my symptoms I experience

A lot of my struggles are internal. Where my sister would shout and be loud and tantrum and all of that I would sit quietly in a corner with a book internally screaming and wanting my needs met but being at a complete loss of how to get them met.

I agree with this, particularly the part about why consequences are pretty doomed for children who struggle with impulse control. I also think from the description of how the child explodes basically immediately if either corrected or reminded of the rules suggests that they are already pretty tightly wound at that point. DS1 was like this, he did eventually grow out of it, DS2 can still be, it is a challenge to manage his stress levels TBH (I highly suspect he is AuDHD but he didn't cooperate with the autism assessment!) DS3 is the child who responds to very "typical" parenting, which is extremely odd after two who just didn't really seem to.

The only thing is that avoiding situations like shops, while it helps relieve some of the stress in the short term, it can really restrict your lives and it also doesn't really help the situation move forward.

If you have any capacity for it at all (I appreciate you very much might not have!) what can help is to write down a list of situations that your DC struggles with, and then pick one at a time to sort of work through, and basically what you want to do is positive reinforcement training.

Unfortunately this is going to come across as really crass - but to be perfectly honest, the resources I've found which explain this the absolute best are aimed at socialising puppies or getting puppies to follow expected behaviour in situations which excite them, rather than parenting children. Now obviously you'd have a different standard of behaviour expectations for children vs dogs. And not EVERY parenting situation will be the right one for this kind of thing. But for situations where you very much want automatic learned responses, the principles really are the same, and they do work. There are some child-centred explanations of this kind of approach here: https://chadd.org/attention-article/how-you-can-be-a-friendship-coach-for-your-child-with-adhd/ and here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLh9mgdi4rNeyEGNxBvNdOVlianDYgWuc9

The dog training explanations are just quicker and much easier to generalise across situations, IMO. But the basic idea is that you pick the situation your child struggles with (say, shops) and then you plan out for yourself what you want their behaviour within a shop to be, and then you break all of this down into separate things, ideally using incompatible behaviours - so you might play a game about stopping and coming back when called, you might practice using loud vs quiet voices, you might think of a place their hands need to be, so that they aren't touching items (e.g. holding hands with you, or hands in pockets, or holding a shopping list or helping carry a basket or whatever it is) And perhaps a distraction, like a helpful task or a game of counting things or looking for letters to help avoid them getting into whining for toys/sweets. And you'd also work on exposure to/familiarity with the situation and generalising rules/expectations across different situations, starting with much easier things e.g. a very short trip to a small shop at a time DC is well-rested, fed, doesn't need the toilet, is looking forward to some treat later or whatever, and ideally things like being 1:1 with you, having a clear goal (but not a long one) and picking a time the shop won't be too busy. For this very short, easy shopping mission you are looking constantly for excuses to praise them and comment on what they're doing well.

Over time, with this reinforcement the behaviour you want in shops should start to override the impulsive, difficult behaviour and become the sort of default template. It works best if you can avoid "normal" shopping trips for a while and only work up from this sort of easier shop visit to more difficult ones, and always go back a step or two if DC is struggling, rather than trying to use consequences/threat of to control their behaviour in the more challenging situation. Then there is also the fact that if stress is a factor, which I think it often is, it can help to try to understand what specifically it is about certain situations they are finding stressful so that you can problem-solve how to mitigate that. Ross Greene has a vv good system for this which also involves making a list of recurrent situations/scenarios DC struggle with, putting most of them on the backburner temporarily, and trying to problem solve one at a time. His books Raising Human Beings and The Explosive Child explain this process from a parenting perspective. It can be tricky to do with a 4yo, though, IME - you end up doing a lot more trial and error from the outside to see whether your hunches are right. If it's the 6yo it might be more directly practicable.

Your own history is actually very relevant. Neurodivergent conditions such as dyslexia are strongly heritable and so the chances of one or both your DC having an ND condition are higher.

My first piece of advice is to find out as much as you can and don’t assume either child - including the “good” one - isn’t ND. It’s not unusual for some ADHD DC to cope well in primary and then struggle in secondary for example.

For your child that is struggling and especially if it’s a female child, you might need to keep pushing with school to get them to take your concerns seriously. You need to be the squeaky wheel. Make sure you share your evidence with them and don’t be fobbed off.

If a full private assessment isn’t an option, there may be less expensive ways to gain evidence to share with school or your GP. Some services will offer pre-screening or a Qb test as a preliminary step. Just maje sure you don’t choose a single practitioner service and check the service is CQC registered.

Finally, forgive me if I’m wrong here, but I’m sensing judgement around the use of screens. It’s just possible that your child who is struggling is completely overwhelmed, and might need some downtime with a screen instead of the sensory overload of being outside. It all comes down to parenting the child you have.

You haven't been stupid.

There should be a lot more paediatrician advice available in this country.

You basically can't get anyone to listen or help till things are really bad.

My DD is doing OK at 13 but DH and I nearly lost our marriage, sanity and jobs over her extreme behaviour at 5-10.

I wonder with this BTW whether it would be helpful to ask GP what exactly they need from school - if it is a particular questionnaire then get them to fill it in accurately, whether or not they have outright concerns, and pass it back to the GP and see what happens.

Or go the other way around and go to the school and say GP will not refer without a statement from the school, is this something you can assist with? I am assuming (I could be wrong!) there is some standard format for this. Schools are not trained to identify ND so they should not be used as a gatekeeper for this. But if there is some kind of threshold that DC perhaps does not meet at this point, then that would make sense. TBH they do prefer not to assess too young particularly for ADHD, as ADHD/normal development does not really begin to diverge significantly until 6+ (well - I mean, as a parent I can tell you it absolutely bloody does diverge much younger than this! And I had a nursery director vehemently agree with me on this topic as well - but apparently, in terms of standard developmental variation, there is too much overlap.)

Learning as much as you can about sensory processing and positive reinforcement are probably the two most practical things you can do when a child is technically "too young" for ADHD assessment but seems to be on the "severely bloody difficult" end of the developmental variation

Oh, and we also avoided big shops for ages. Although I found a lovely corner shop near school and we practised social interaction and manners every Friday after school while buying sweets.

I agree with @BertieBotts - find out about the assessment process in as much detail as possible.

Bear in mind that the main aim of a lot of services is to put people off. It may not be their ACTUAL aim, but it's how it generally feels.

I love that. "Severely bloody difficult".

Even worse, my DH is sooo similar albeit with nicer manners and more skills.

Me and two "SBD" people .

Never ask a question you don't want an answer to! (Wish I could take my own advice).

You don't say which is the 'naughty' one but they're both still very young and kids vary in terms of their maturity. I have kids 2 years apart and they are not particularly different in terms of maturity. My naughty one is now maturing (aged 10) and showing her true personality, which is highly extroverted, imaginative and intelligent.

Whereas her siblings tended to be the sort of kids who might need a bit of correction, she was a kid who would fight to the death about everything. I too, was exasperated that consistency wasn't working the magic I was told it would. Ultimately, I realised that working with her personality was the best way to get her onside. She was fighting because she liked the stimulation. Consequences didn't work because she was impulsive and was getting a kick out of clashing with us. As she got older, what worked best was sticking to firm consequences but making them ones that didn't give her the kick (i.e. sent to time out with no attention at all). Alongside that, accepting that she needed constant stimulation and liked being trusted to make good decisions herself (easier when they get older). So as soon as she started playing up, we gave her something to do or did something with her. We had chats about right and wrong and when she transgressed, reminded her of them. She's still a 'character' but in a really nice way.

This may not be the picture for your child, but understanding what is driving this could help.