Very different siblings - "good kid" "naughty kid" HELP

[HairsprayBabe]

reposting from chat because i got no responses

We have 2 DC very close in age 18m apart - they are currently in primary school. One school year apart.

One child is very well behaved, will sit nicely anywhere we go, plays calmly, Listens, likes helping, never rude etc. Apologetic if behaviour is corrected. Not perfect of course but is generally a "good" child

One child is poorly behaved, doesn't listen, is rude, won't sit, plays rough, won't help, runs off, answers back, unpleasant attitude etc.
Default mode when behaviour is corrected is rage. Has moments of being sweet and lovely but - generally for example referred to as " a real character" at parent eve... aka "naughty"

Both are equally clever, both have been parented the same way. Low screen time lots of time out doors all the things you are "supposed" to do.

We were told they would grow out of the "bad" behaviour if we were consistent but they have been like this since they were about 2 and a half. We have done literally everything we have been told to do, we are strict, we follow up with consequences, we remove them from situations and nothing is changing and it is such hard work.

As they get older I am more and more worried that they are going to absorb everyone heaping praise on the other sibling while they have been cast as "the bad one" Equally I still want to praise and celebrate my other child for their achievements. I am really stressed about "good" child being overlooked, and "bad" child feeling like a black sheep.

Both children are happy and healthy with no concerns raised by professionals..

I don't know what else we can do, I feel like I am letting them both down.

6yrs 3 months so birthday start of September? If they’re the better behaved one then that is probably be why. They’re nearly a year older than the summer borns in their class so they’re seen as the ‘sensible’ ones. If ‘naughty’ one is the 4yo in reception then they might just be struggling with the transition.

I would guess it was aimed at me as I questioned the labelling.

@Octavia64 We have tried switching up parenting styles, we already take them to three sports/hobbies a week as well as lots of outside time and just being an active walking family anyway.

Other child does other activities, some physical some not so much because like you said they are obviously their own person at the end of the day.

This is the type of thing I was meaning in my OP when I said we have done all the things we have been "told" to try - appreciate it is hard to know what we might and might not have been told though

They very much have a personality of if we give them an inch they take a mile and they don't have much of an off switch for things. eg. they want to throw things the absolute hardest or eat all the sweets etc

Other child is much better at knowing their limits.

I don’t think you meant to respond to Monvelo, who I thought wrote a helpful post. I think you might have intended to reply to someone else

School had no ND concerns about DC2. At 18, they were diagnosed with dyslexia. At 19 with ADHD and autism.

@Monvelo Yes I am so sorry I tagged the incorrect person I do apologise

Maybe school would be willing just to write down a factual account of things they have observed/behaviours that have required support? 'Struggles to accept correction, finds it hard to sit still' and so on, without getting into whether they think it's ND or not? That might get you the evidence from school in a slightly different way?

When you read about neurodivergence and the behaviours it can lead to, does anything resonate? Have you or could you try some of those parenting techniques regardless of diagnosis?

I would say also pick one or two things to focus on, and let other things go as much as possible. It's overwhelming for anyone to try to change too much at once. I'd be open with DC about this and involve them in choose what to focus on if you can. Make it something you're working on together – for one of mine, we talked about the little voice inside them telling them to test boundaries, see if Mummy really means it, and we both used to tell off that little voice, and I'd encourage DC that they were stronger than the little voice and could tell it no and not throw the thing/refuse to put their shoes on/etc.

When one child is needing support with behaviour that the other is finding basic, we've talked about how we're each working on different skills because we're different people. We do occasionally do reward charts when someone needs that little extra incentive for a bit, and their charts are always for different things, individual to what they are finding hard or need a boost with at that point in time. It can be a skill they are developing as well, so one not struggling with behaviour might have 'practiced doing my own ponytail' or whatever.

Our area also requires support from school and gp won’t refer without it. OP have you tried love bombing the more challenging one? Celebrating every small, tiny success. Loads of rewards for good behaviour etc. “praise the behaviour you want and ignore the behaviour you don’t” works well. The theory is the more you tell off, the less effective it becomes.

I highly recommend the attached book for strategies in changing difficult behaviour in a family with children who have different needs.

No off switch is a sign of adhd

@discotoadstool this is my inkling, I have been wary of just labelling bad behaviour as ND, I think I was worried of it being a cop out if our parenting was just not good.

Read the book ‘Siblings without Rivalry’. Will help you navigate this situation in a kind and respectful way. It helped me with a really tricky dynamic in which two children, both doing the same hobby yet one was gifted in that area and one was not. It turned out well! It really is a fascinating book that makes you consider your own family dynamics with siblings too, this was key to doing some things very differently in my own parenting to how my parents operated (in a well meaning way nonetheless)

we also had to navigate a third child with profound SN, whose arrival impacted the older two in every area of their lives, it helped enormously here too, not with dealing the SN as such but helping the older two navigate the situation positively.

Have you tried really looking for opportunities for the naughty one to be "good"? Loads of praise and specific positive feedback even it's just for the absence of naughtiness (sitting nicely, waiting patiently, taking turns, using indoor voice, sharing etc etc)? What are they like one on one with you?

This reminds me of my brother and I growing up: he was loud and outgoing, I was shy and quiet, he teased me a lot, and we squabbled a lot. I hated it when we were jointly blamed for something, or if the “stop it!” was addressed to both of us. I used to get the “just ignore him when he’s being so silly”. I felt very resentful towards him for most of our childhood.

Our parents tried to deal with it as best as they could, but there were times I felt (rightly or wrongly) that he was allowed to tease me, but I wasn’t allowed to tease him back; and I’m still salty about times I was punished for retaliating to him. It was easier at school as we were in different years, but I used to dread school holidays.

This book is good, the parenting advice in it is not going to cause an issue if your child turns out not to have ADHD, and should help whether issues just "look like" ND or actually are:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Step-Help-Children-ADHD-Self-Help/dp/1805011073/r

What do you mean you parent two children with very different needs the same way? Your expectations sound very rigid.

Children are different, they are not born bad, you didn’t get one bad child and one good child. You got two different children who need different ways of parenting from you.

@LeopardOnEverything one on one "naughty" child is better but still reacts very strongly if corrected. For example if we were in a shop and they picked up something breakable and I asked calmly for them to put it back they would get angry and start shouting, they go immediately to 100. If I try to lay out behaviour expectations before we go somewhere (don't touch anything glass in the shop) they would also react angrily. If I remove them, we aren't touching glass things we need to go they would need to be physically carried out - obviously getting harder now they are getting bigger and that feels like something you do with a toddler not a primary child!

The more people around the worse the behaviour I would say. Behaviour is worse for me than DH

"good" child is very similar alone to with their sibling but is shyer in large groups

There are other things you've mentioned which signal ADHD to me - overreacting to perceived criticism/correction is a big one, and you said somewhere 'eat all the sweets' which is linked to impulsivity

@Hugasaurusrex
I mean how they live in general is the same, low screens, lots of out door time, access to the same things/toys/hobbies (if they want them) etc.

Expectations are generic, and not over the top just things like, hold hands when near a busy road, don't shout in the car, reading/phonics needs to be done before we can play, toys need to go away before bedtime, keep your hands to yourself. Nothing draconian at all

@discotoadstool impulsivity is a huge one, they can be really destructive. I used to ask "why have you done that" when they intentionally broke something and it was always "i just thought of it"

(i have since learned that asking is actually a stupid thing for me to do)

Where you're going wrong is having the same consequences for both off them they are 2 individual children with 2 different personality types. 1 of mine would be devastated if I told him I wasn't happy with his behaviour yet my dd couldn't give a shit so would keep doing it so she needs harsher consequences then my son

@mamaof4losingmymind the consequences escalate - one child can be "disciplined" for lack of a better word with a stern look. The other child could virtually be told they are sleeping in the shed and they still don't really care.

Consequences are generally linked to things they like to do but they don't really seem to link the consequence to behaviour.

This

OP there is an ND trait that can sit inside an ADHD/Autism diagnosis or it stands alone - Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria. Have you read about it? X

@Catarinabella school have said no concerns it has been brought up several times by us just "boisterous" or "cheeky chap" I don't know what to do next with them, spoke to GP a while ago but they won't refer on without school support.

@permanently no I don't know much about additional diagnoses or the deep specifics of ND - I am dyslexic but I don't know if that is relevant.

@HairsprayBabeour kid (7) has ADHD. We went private to seek diagnosis (school flagged concerns too). But he also wasn’t progressing academically as he wasn’t attending to instruction, rushing work etc.

Worth considering private diagnosis tho, if you’re really worried.