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Original poster

Childminder wants holiday pay after contract has ended

73 replies

LittlePickleHead · 07/07/2015 20:28

Wasn't sure where to post this!

I've had to change my days at work, which my CM can't accommodate. I therefore found a nursery place for DS starting September.

I handed in notice to my CM on 22 June. Both ourselves and CM are on holiday last two weeks of August. So I specified leaving date 12 August.

We pay CM full rate for holidays. However, the contract terminates the week before the booked holiday.

I've had a text from the childminder saying she is entitled to be paid for the holiday. I wasn't expecting this. The contract is very short, and there are no clauses saying that any payment in lieu is due after contract finishes. It stipulates the notice period is 4 weeks (I gave 7) and then lists "childminder absences paid in full: holiday (25 days), bank holidays... (Etc)

I understand that she is probably a bit peeved as was expecting the money, but on the other hand I could have given four weeks notice but I didn't want to deprive her of the payment for the other holiday weeks so decided to give as much notice as possible.

Can anyone let me know where I stand? I'm 99% certain that we don't owe her the two weeks holiday pay, but would be great to get some opinions before I go back to her

I'm a bit gutted as I really like her and didn't want to end the agreement, I really hope things don't turn sour :(

OP posts:
lougle · 07/07/2015 20:35

Is it a pro-rata thing? How long have you been with her? When does the holiday year start? If you have a contract to pay 25 days holiday per year and have been with her, say, 4/5 of the year, then that would be 20 days holiday?

Original poster
LittlePickleHead · 07/07/2015 20:39

But lougle, she is self employed so doesn't accrue holiday in the same way as a paye employee as far as I know (can anyone clarify this?) so there is no payment in lieu?

I think it would have to be explicitly mentioned in the contract?

OP posts:
Collaborate · 07/07/2015 23:55

So, the contract you have with her is that you pay whether or not you're on holiday? She can't demand you pay when you've terminated the contract. Tell her that you'll make sure that she's paid in full according to the contract.

SocksRock · 07/07/2015 23:59

My contract says that any prebooked holiday by CM doesn't count in notice - but As this falls after the notice has expired, I would say you don't owe her.

Original poster
LittlePickleHead · 08/07/2015 07:52

Yes that's right collaborate, we have agreed to pay her for absences.
But as the contract will have ended, there is no absence

It's awkward though as she still has the children for a while. I'm hoping that she's just misinformed on this point but I do feel bad if she feels she is owed the money.

Thinking about offering 50% as a good will gesture but not sure if I'm being too soft?

OP posts:
DoreenLethal · 08/07/2015 07:59

I think what she has done with her paid absences 25 days line is assume they are spread out over the year so is trying to pro rata them. Have you already paid her some absent days this year?

BathtimeFunkster · 08/07/2015 08:00

She's not your employee.

You're her client.

She wants her clients to pay her when she's not working, and you agreed to that.

Once you are no longer her client, you don't have to pay her at all.

You could reduce her notice to the 4 weeks stipulated in the contract, and be done with it.

Collaborate · 08/07/2015 08:02

Too soft. Where does it end? What if you had a holiday booked later on in the year? Would you pay her for that as well?

Collaborate · 08/07/2015 08:03

DoreenLethal it's not the CM's holidays this covers. It's when OP is on holiday the CM still wants to be paid - fair enough. But that only applies when the contract is still in force.

Original poster
LittlePickleHead · 08/07/2015 08:10

Collaborate - we pay for both our holidays and the CM holiday, we just happen to both be away the same two weeks

OP posts:
poocatcherchampion · 08/07/2015 08:14

I dont think you owe her either.
And don't think you should pay.

Original poster
LittlePickleHead · 08/07/2015 08:15

Bathtime - that's what I thought, it would actually have been cheaper for us to give 4 weeks notice and share a friend's nanny for the summer hols, but as we had already said we needed her for those weeks I thought it would be fairer to give her the 7 weeks notice so she didn't miss out on pay (£100 a day in holidays so a lot of money)

I feel like that's bitten me on the arse now, and I don't want an atmosphere especially where the kids are involved

I would like to find something official I could show her just in case she genuinely doesn't realise. It looks like ncma used to explicitly say holiday cannot be accrued and paid after contract ends, but now they are pacey their documents are only available to registered child carers

Anyone know of any other legislation etc I could refer to?

OP posts:
AnneElliott · 08/07/2015 08:30

I agree that you don't owe her. The contract has terminated do how can you stop be liable to pay? Perhaps she doesn't realise that the contract ends on a date before she goes on holiday?

I would just make it clear that the contract ends on x date, you have given her nearly double the required notice but won't be paying for the holiday as it's after the end date.

How often do you pay her? Monthly in advance?

sanfairyanne · 08/07/2015 08:37

this was surely bound to create bad feeling as you have given your notice to leave a few days before her holiday? if she had new people over the summer if you left earlier, they would be paying for her holiday. now she has noone paying.
if you do something like that you have to expect bad feeling. you could have paid her holiday or offered half as she has 'earned it' over the year she has worked but you chose to save the money. the result is bad feeling. it is just the price you pay.

(i am not a fan of the 'paid holiday for self employed')

BathtimeFunkster · 08/07/2015 08:43

it would actually have been cheaper for us to give 4 weeks notice and share a friend's nanny for the summer hols, but as we had already said we needed her for those weeks I thought it would be fairer to give her the 7 weeks notice so she didn't miss out on pay (£100 a day in holidays so a lot of money)

Tell her that.

If you want, tell her that losing £1500 is still an option, but that you won't be paying her after your extended notice period.

IANAL BTW.

But I work for myself and pay a childminder.

This whole "pay me for my holidays" business is really dodgy.

Most sole traders include their holiday pay in their basic rate.

Asking you to pay her when she's not available to work is pretty cheeky IMO, but if it bites her in the arse when you leave just before her annual 2 week holiday, that's her lookout. Not yours.

Original poster
LittlePickleHead · 08/07/2015 09:26

San fairy - I gave her 7 weeks notice as I thought it would be fairer to pay her for longer! I didn't specifically choose to end before the holiday, it's just the way it worked out with the nursery place becoming available.
You say I should expect bad feeling - I say if you are self employed and specify 4 weeks notice then that's what you should expect.

I actually find it quite hurtful that we should expect bad feeling for not paying something we weren't informed about and hadnt agreed to

OP posts:
BathtimeFunkster · 08/07/2015 09:33

There is no way she would have found anyone willing to pay for two full weeks of holiday 3 weeks after their kids started with her.

She has no business being pissed off.

She chose this ridiculous fee structure.

She hasn't "earned" any holidays from you.

If she wants to accrue holidays, she can go and work as a nanny and pay full tax and NI contributions.

She is running a business here. Businesses don't get to bill former clients for work they didn't do because they think they are "owed" some paid time off.

sashh · 08/07/2015 11:16

I think the only leg she has to stand on is if the contract stipulated it would last 12 months, or 6 month and you had cut that short, but you have given notice as required so I can't see that being a problem.

I'm a supply teacher so I don't get paid in the holidays because I'm not working, but the umbrella company who actually pay me keep back 12% of NMW so although not paid by a school / college I do get some money.

She should have done something similar for if you gave notice.

Ask her where it says it in the contract.

Original poster
LittlePickleHead · 08/07/2015 11:31

I've said to her it's not in the contract, she replies saying everyone (self employed or company) is owed to pro rata holiday. I know this isn't correct though unless the contract explicitly says so

OP posts:
BathtimeFunkster · 08/07/2015 11:40

But she's not asking for pro-rata holiday pay, she's asking for you to pay her for her holidays because they take place directly after her notice period.

Penfold007 · 08/07/2015 11:49

Only employees accrue annual leave. As a self-employed person she chooses whether to take time off or not. She has written holiday payments in to her contract but and this is the crucial part - your contract with her will have ended.
The only thing she can do is stick to four weeks notice and end the contract earlier.

Original poster
LittlePickleHead · 08/07/2015 11:56

She mentioned pro rata in her second text, which is slightly less than the two weeks

OP posts:
Original poster
LittlePickleHead · 08/07/2015 11:57

Hope she doesn't do that. My kids adore her and have been planning our thank you gift etc. would hate to end on a sour note

OP posts:
Original poster
LittlePickleHead · 08/07/2015 11:58

So what would you all do in this situation?

I'll still see her on the school run on my day off so could be v awkward

OP posts:
leeloo1 · 08/07/2015 12:00

As a childminder who is paid for holidays (as ncma used to recommend - don't know if they still do or not) I would want paying for holiday days I'd accrued and not taken. If you'd specified a leaving date before a booked holiday I'd informed you of, I'd give you a choice of paying for x number of days, or (more likely) I'd just book a few extra days of leave before your notice period ended. E.g ' thank you for your letter giving formal notice of your leaving on x date. As you are aware, our contract stipulates that I am paid for x weeks holiday per year and I will therefore be taking xyz dates as leave'.

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