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Original poster

Childminder wants holiday pay after contract has ended

73 replies

LittlePickleHead · 07/07/2015 20:28

Wasn't sure where to post this!

I've had to change my days at work, which my CM can't accommodate. I therefore found a nursery place for DS starting September.

I handed in notice to my CM on 22 June. Both ourselves and CM are on holiday last two weeks of August. So I specified leaving date 12 August.

We pay CM full rate for holidays. However, the contract terminates the week before the booked holiday.

I've had a text from the childminder saying she is entitled to be paid for the holiday. I wasn't expecting this. The contract is very short, and there are no clauses saying that any payment in lieu is due after contract finishes. It stipulates the notice period is 4 weeks (I gave 7) and then lists "childminder absences paid in full: holiday (25 days), bank holidays... (Etc)

I understand that she is probably a bit peeved as was expecting the money, but on the other hand I could have given four weeks notice but I didn't want to deprive her of the payment for the other holiday weeks so decided to give as much notice as possible.

Can anyone let me know where I stand? I'm 99% certain that we don't owe her the two weeks holiday pay, but would be great to get some opinions before I go back to her

I'm a bit gutted as I really like her and didn't want to end the agreement, I really hope things don't turn sour :(

OP posts:
SocksRock · 08/07/2015 12:03

Honestly - I would give her 4 weeks notice right now. Only employees accrue holiday and she is not your employee. She is self employed and thems the breaks. If her two weeks holiday had fallen within the notice period then fair enough. My CM would have expected 6 weeks notice in this scenario (4 weeks plus 2 weeks holiday) but she has had way more than that.

Jackie0 · 08/07/2015 12:05

God how awkward.
I'm a cm, she's made a mistake. If she phones ncma they will explain it to her.

Original poster
LittlePickleHead · 08/07/2015 12:12

Argh feel so bad.

Leeloo - my CM is obviously of the same opinion as you. If this is something you do want to enforce I would recommend adding it to your contract!

It seems unfair to expect something not required by law, and not actually make your clients aware in advance that this would stand?

If I had left in September she would "owe" me holiday - do you think I would get that money deducted? Nope

OP posts:
BathtimeFunkster · 08/07/2015 12:17

Wow, leeloo, I would never do business with someone like you.

You don't "accrue" holiday as a childminder.

I wouldn't pay you for any holidays you forced into your "notice" period.

What a fucking pisstake.

Back to OP - I would give her the option of 7 weeks notice or the kids finishing 4 weeks from the time you gave notice.

I would refuse to pay her for holidays that didn't fall within my contract with her.

If she was "accruing" holiday, you would pay a higher rate year around and nothing when she wasn't available to work.

afussyphase · 08/07/2015 12:20

How awkward. You've made a logical choice for you, given the fee structure and the nursery thing, and she wants what would make sense for her (eg her holidays not undermined by your sensible choice as to ending the contract!). The problem is the structure itself - much better to have holiday pay factored in to the base rate, as others have suggested. Then it's just like pro rata accumulation, and clients don't feel that they are paying 100£ for any specific day on which they aren't receiving the childminding (just a monthly rate)! One of the unsung advantages of nurseries is that all this stuff isn't personal or handled by your child's carer.

What leeloo suggests would make sense for her to do now -- rather than losing any paid holiday, move it to a time within your contract. Which would not be best for you, but you could suggest it if you really need this to go happily... Agree with others that it seems that as the contract stands you won't be legally required to pay extra.

Original poster
LittlePickleHead · 08/07/2015 12:28

She has to give notice for holiday so would only be able to go for the last week anyway, and end up worse off

I agree, higher daily rate and free holidays much better! Then you've always already been paid for what you are entitled to

OP posts:
SocksRock · 08/07/2015 12:28

Thing is, pro rata holiday for the self employed is NOT legally required, unless it is specified in the contract. She either has to be employed or have it written into her contract for it to be due. She can't just decide that she wants pro rata pay just because the notice date falls just before a holiday. If it was a week earlier, would it be due then, how about three weeks earlier?

wannaBe · 08/07/2015 12:39

she's not your employee therefore her holiday is not your concern once you have dispensed with her services.

Tell her that the stipulation in the contract is a minimum of four weeks notice. You have given notice, and her holiday falls outside of that period, holiday which she would have been taking anyway and therefore you will pay her the time for notice and nothing more. She doesn't have a leg to stand on.

As an aside, no parent in their right mind would send their child to a childminder just weeks before said childminder was due to go on holiday, so you won't have been depriving her of a potential new child for a three week period.....

Original poster
LittlePickleHead · 08/07/2015 13:13

Stupid thing is I feel guilty, but part of me wonders if she thinks I'm a pushover :(

OP posts:
Collaborate · 08/07/2015 13:18

She must think you're a pushover if she expects you to pay £1000 that she's not entitled to.

minibmw2010 · 08/07/2015 13:22

Well it sounds like a misunderstanding more than her taking you for a mug, however you are going to have to stand your ground if you feel you are in the right. The fact she's local and you'll see her around is by the by.

Original poster
LittlePickleHead · 08/07/2015 13:29

It's not quite that much as I'm part time, but still a lot to me

OP posts:
Rosieliveson · 08/07/2015 13:29

My husband and I discussed this last night.
If she was your employee and entitled to 20 days holiday then she would be 'owed' some pro rata as she left.
However, she is self employed and you have contracted her services. Once your contract is over there are no terms that she can hold you to. Especially if you have followed contract and given the stipulated notice.
My reply would be to say that "there seems to have been some confusion about dates. The notice given means we will have terminated our contract before any holiday is taken. There is no payment outstanding"

Hopefully this won't create any bad feeling. It's not your fault if it does

BitterChocolate · 08/07/2015 13:38

What happened about holidays in the year that you started (assuming you didn't do a full calendar year in the first year)? If she didn't pro-rata down the amount that you paid for her holidays then surely that is an indication that holiday is paid as it falls and NOT pro rata.

Sidge · 08/07/2015 13:43

I wouldn't pay her; as the others have said, your contract has ended and you have no obligation to pay her holiday pay.

She is not an employee, she is self-employed and the service she was providing for you will have ended.

I have no time for self-employed people who think they can get the best of both worlds by expecting to adopt the 'perks' of self-employment as well as those of being an employee. Of course if a client is willing to sign a contract agreeing to those terms then fair enough (and more fool them). Personally I wouldn't employ a CM like Leeloo and can't imagine why anyone would demand payment for work not done, when they are not available to work!

ChunkyPickle · 08/07/2015 13:49

It's a really awful contract - but I would make an offer to pay as if she had accrued holiday like an employee (which she isn't - she's self-employed, so the person that owes her holiday pay is herself, and she should be including it in her daily rate)

So if she'd accrue 25 days holiday over a year, and your kids have been there 2/3rds of the year, then pay her 2/3rds of the 25 days, less any holiday already taken.

Technically though, on the contract, you don't have to, and this is just a good faith gesture (if it's not going to help in the happiness stakes then save yourself the money maybe)

StonedGalah · 08/07/2015 13:51

You've given her 7 weeks notice. That is plenty! No way I'd be paying holiday pay on top Hmm

balletgirlmum · 08/07/2015 13:56

I wouldn't say anything. When you next see her if she brings it up just say something vague like, oh right, I'll have to have a look & check the terms/figures then leave it.

Thst way hopefully she'll think you are going to pay it thus not causing unpleasantness whilst your child is still there.

If she then wishes to pursue it afterwards refer Her to the terms of the contract & to the small claims court if she disputes it.

Original poster
LittlePickleHead · 08/07/2015 14:18

I've already responded though saying I'm confused as it's not in the contract, then she replied saying its pro rats and she would send me the calculation. I responded saying I'm not trying to be awkward but it doesn't sound right to me and referring her to advice given on a cm website. No correspondence since

We pay in advance so the last payment is due 2 weeks before the kids leave

OP posts:
Collaborate · 08/07/2015 14:21

I think to avoid any unpleasantness you need to box this off ASAP. You don't want her refusing your kids after you've paid for the last 2 weeks. Have you read through the contract? Perhaps you could post on here precisely what it says about this holiday nonsense.

Collaborate · 08/07/2015 14:21

Forgot to say - had she thought it was clear in the contract she would have referred you to the relevant provision in her reply.

SunnyBaudelaire · 08/07/2015 14:25

" Businesses don't get to bill former clients for work they didn't do because they think they are "owed" some paid time off. "

this really

Downright cheeky IMO.

Original poster
LittlePickleHead · 08/07/2015 14:27

Gosh I hope she doesn't refuse the children, she really doesn't seem like that (she's been lovely!)

That would be in definite breach of the contract

I'm at work now so don't have it in front of me, but it basically has two tables, heading of first is "childminder absences paid in full" and the table lists holiday, bank holidays, illness and funerals
Next table is "minder absence paid in full" and lists the same
That's all there is with reference to holiday

OP posts:
Original poster
LittlePickleHead · 08/07/2015 14:28

*mindee not minder

OP posts:
SunnyBaudelaire · 08/07/2015 14:28

" I would want paying for holiday days I'd accrued and not taken "

leeloo, a self employed person does not 'accrue' holidays from their customers , don't be silly.