Childminder wants holiday pay after contract has ended

[LittlePickleHead]

Wasn't sure where to post this!

I've had to change my days at work, which my CM can't accommodate. I therefore found a nursery place for DS starting September.

I handed in notice to my CM on 22 June. Both ourselves and CM are on holiday last two weeks of August. So I specified leaving date 12 August.

We pay CM full rate for holidays. However, the contract terminates the week before the booked holiday.

I've had a text from the childminder saying she is entitled to be paid for the holiday. I wasn't expecting this. The contract is very short, and there are no clauses saying that any payment in lieu is due after contract finishes. It stipulates the notice period is 4 weeks (I gave 7) and then lists "childminder absences paid in full: holiday (25 days), bank holidays... (Etc)

I understand that she is probably a bit peeved as was expecting the money, but on the other hand I could have given four weeks notice but I didn't want to deprive her of the payment for the other holiday weeks so decided to give as much notice as possible.

Can anyone let me know where I stand? I'm 99% certain that we don't owe her the two weeks holiday pay, but would be great to get some opinions before I go back to her

I'm a bit gutted as I really like her and didn't want to end the agreement, I really hope things don't turn sour :(

No way would I pay. You have a fall back if she decides to give you notice so her 4 weeks end before your 7.

this is just how a lot of childminder contracts are

it is stupid but it is like a cross between employed and self employed

there are indeed people on mumsnet who have started with a new childminder then had to pay for a cm holiday quite early on

you have arranged to save yourself some money, perfectly legally, by terminating the contract just before her holiday but it is going to cause bad feeling.

the way I see it is like this:

You sign a contract for a childminder to look after your children. As part of that contract it stipulates that the childminder is entitled to take x number of days holiday during any calendar year but that the client will still be liable to pay for that time even though the childminder is on holiday. It's a bit of a bloody nerve but that's how some cm's work.

However, entitlement to holiday during the calendar year while the child is with the childminder does not mean that the childminder accrues holiday during the year and thus additional money even if the client leaves. The childminder is self-employed, she is not entitled to holiday pay as such from her clients, more entitled to be paid for a certain number of days during the year, some of which she will be entitled to take off.

if the childminder didn't take any holiday during the year she wouldn't be entitled to demand extra holiday pay from her clients. Similarly if the client leaves during the year she would not be entitled to pay for holiday she hadn't taken during the calendar year.

Legally the cm wouldn't have a leg to stand on and I would tell her to get stuffed. Oh, and if she argues the point I would put a negative review on whichever website she is registered with. But only once the children are no longer there.

Also remember that she has far more to worry about when it comes to awkwardness at the school gate than you do.

My longstanding (and brilliant) childminder has had a lot of business sent her way by my recommendations. Even people I haven't recommended her to have asked me for informal references.

People don't want to use the services of a childminder who is shady moneywise.

If you are trusting someone to look after your children, the last thing you need is to have to watch your back in case they rip you off with shifting terms and conditions and demands for payments that were never agreed.

Technically though she does have a point. I previously asked 'how many days have you paid her this year' - because the contract stipulates 'childminder absences paid in full: holiday (25 days), bank holidays' so if you take that to it's conclusion the 25 days could be pro-rata-ed out over the year. Hence asking how many you have paid so far this contractual year.

no, that contract would never IMO stand up to legal scrutiny. The childminder would be entitled to take a number of days off during a calendar year for which she would still be paid. however the op is not her employer, therefore the op does not owe her for time she has not taken off during that time iyswim.

Because that would equate to e.g. the childminder being entitled to say 25 days holiday pay for every child she has in her care, meaning that if she has ten children in her care she would be entitled to 250 days holiday pay on top of what she already earns as a childminder. Dodgy as fuck.

I think it is completely bizarre that you would be expected to pay a holiday to someone who is self employed. She is not your employee - it is madness. Anyway she is clearly wrong I would personally say nothing more about it. If she brings it up, repeat ad nauseam that she has unfortunately made a mistake, smile sweetly and carry on.

Absolutely ridiculous, OP.

Please don't feel guilty.

the op agreed to pay holidays when she signed the contract. the quickest of google searches or mumsnet searches reveals that a lot of childminders charge for holidays. they agreed a long time (?) in advance what those days would be. op has now broken the spirit but not the letter of the contract by giving notice just before the holiday period. no legal comeback and a drawback of this kind of contract for the cm but obviously it is going to cause bad feeling.
op did not have to sign this contract and agree to pay holiday pay. if she had signed with a cm who incorporated it into her daily rate (hence more expensive) she would not be trying to salve her conscience now.

Presumably very few charge for holidays they take when they are not actually employed to care for your child.

well yes it is a ridiculous model and the cm risks the parent doing exactly what the op has done. i dont agree with the model myself and wouldnt use a cm who asked for paid holidays, but if i was i wouldnt expect anything but bad feeling if i timed my end of contract to avoid the whole agreed period of holiday pay. it would always cause bad feeling, of course it would!

i would have paid the holiday pay

No way would I pay this.

At what point in the year does she consider that your relationship ends, if not with the end of your contract? Will she want Christmas Bank Holidays? Paying for a day off sick she has in October?

I don't understand her logic at all. She has no right to accrued holidays so I fail to see the point in her sending through her 'calculation'. I'm sure her calculation is beautifully correct but it doesn't change the fact that you simply don't have to pay for holidays which come after your contract has ended - and had you given 4 weeks notice, would have come some time after the contract had ended.

If she tries to insist then change your notice to 4 weeks rather than 7, pay her 2 weeks holiday and be a week's money up on the deal. I realise that gives you a childcare headache though.

it's totally immoral and I wouldn't give her any money for holidays. She is self employed. Holiday pay wise she should be entitled to nothing, even if she wrote it into the contract. The only point at which she would be entitled to holiday pay would be if she took holiday during the time she was looking after the op's child.

I can't believe that anyone actually thinks otherwise, although presumably those that do are all childminders....

i'm not a childminder and i wouldnt sign a contract like that, but if i had i wouldnt hand my notice in the week before i had agreed to pay my cm holiday pay and expect her to be fine about it. that sounds more immoral to me. but legal.

Surely the CM has planned for eventualities like this? OP could hand in her notice now and be finished with the CM in 4 weeks, how would she fund her holiday then?

Giving someone 7 weeks rather than 4 weeks notice is hardly "immoral".

If you are not going to be available to work for 2 weeks, you can expect people looking to finish contracts to finish them before you ask them to pay you for two weeks of not working.

Expecting to be paid regardless of your availability for work is bad enough when you have an ongoing contract.

To imagine people are going to continue to do that when they no longer require your services is just bizarre.

its just a weird childminding thing that is still fairly common amongst childminders and one of the suggested options that their childminding association recommends. i suppose as a personal relationship based on mutual trust it must be fairly uncommon for people to do as the op has done, otherwise the cm would not still have it on their terms and conditions (although i still think it is a stupid way to charge)
www.nicma.org/cms/parents/271

the op signed up to it and agreed to those conditions so i still think it is cheapskate and shabby

What's cheapskate and shabby is trying to diddle your clients by expecting them to pay you for work you don't do, and then pretending it was always pro-rata when they try to hand in notice.

The deal was that she expected to be paid in full for any holidays she took while the contract was ongoing.

If it had been pro-rata all along, it would have been obvious, because, as a part timer, the OP would have been paying less on holiday weeks.

This request for holiday payment after nearly double the required notice is a nasty, grasping rip off.

Nobody who valued their good reputation would treat a good client this way.

Hi OP, did you manage to get this resolved? I'm in a similar situation and was wondering if you could give me some tips?!

Ex childminder here!
I must have been a pushover then:-
Only charged for the contracted days,
If I was holiday I didnt get paid.
If they were on holiday I got half fee
If it was a bank holiday I didnt get paid.
I lost out on lots of money then?

Hi birdlady I've has two CMs and although a fair few of their terms have been different, neither charged for their holidays although we pay the full whack when we're on holiday (if not the same time) just the same as any other time that they're available to work the contracted hours but we don't use the service. Paid holiday sounds v weird to me in this context!

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