Archie Battersbee - Thread 4

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Archie Battersbee - Thread 3 http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/inthee_news/4601962-archie-battersbee-thread-3

I think the boy is pretty much dead "at peace" now
(Why not just say "dead"?).

I agree with you here. I don't think anyone can comprehend what it's like for a parent to go through something like this.
There's an old saying - unless you've walked in someone else's shoes...
I'm guessing no-one will have, not in the same way as these parents. Much less make personal judgements about her having a history of lying or having a personality disorder. Let's just kick someone when they're down eh? How does anyone even know this,? I'd treat these statements with big pinch of salt.
What about looking at the bigger picture? No-one - not the professionals involved, the judges- are perfect everyone makes mistakes.
If the parents have a right to officially challenge the decision it's noone else's business.

What about looking at the bigger picture?

what is being missed, so you think?

Well obviously but his body is not being allowed to rest in peace.

(1) All medical decisions must legally be made based on what is in Archie's best interests.

(2) The hospital's view is that his body is too unstable to be successfully moved to a hospice.

Taking both of those together, means that the hospital must legally oppose moving him to a hospice. They cannot just do what the parents want because that would be easier. If the parents still insist, then the only resolution is the courts.

In most other similar cases to this, the children concerned have been slightly less dependent on machinery and human intervention to sustain their 'life'. So moving them to a hospice was possible.

It’s all so devastating.

I obviously feel for the family, but also for the Chief Medical Officer and staff who are having to carry the weight of responsibility, especially during peak holiday time when they may be struggling with staffing and having to delay their own family’s plans.

He's good . He's been good all along . That's the most heartbreaking thing about it

This is why she thinks they can get him in an ambulance and transfer him, there are a few hospices near to the hospital . I think she actually believes he won't go into arrest and die before her eyes in the ambulance

Bear in mind she's been saying he's holding his temperature and blood pressure , taking full feeds and on ( in her opinion) typical non invasive drugs .
Putting weight on and passing stools .

The refusal to move him for MRI was probably because she didn't want the results confirmed .
Like she refused to have him deprived of oxygen for 2x5 minutes as he had suffered with 3 minutes loss .
Once he was declared dead , it was taken out of her hands

He's "survived" over 115 days when they said he wouldn't last the night .

If she thinks even for a nanosecond he could get to Italy /Turkey/Japan then a few miles in an Ambulance would be achievable .

(I'm inclined to think just let her do it , as long as she 100% knows if he crashes , then he creashes , and she accepts this without any quibble )

With the hospitals last statement in regards to him not being able to be moved, hopefully the courts will turn down the request straight away at 9am and the hospital can turn him off at 11 and spare the poor boys indignity any further.

The high court order that has already been upheld on appeal stated he cannot be moved from the hospital anyway. I think there will be another 24 hour stay while the application is refused.

I agree with you here. I don't think anyone can comprehend what it's like for a parent to go through something like this.
There's an old saying - unless you've walked in someone else's shoes...
I'm guessing no-one will have, not in the same way as these parents.

Thousands of parents have had to go through the horror of their children dying, including cases where the process has been long drawn-out because of the nature of the child's injuries or illness.

Sure, very few have gone through that in conjunction with a protracted court process after their child's brain as been irrevocably destroyed, but I can't see how that disqualifies others from having an opinion.

What about looking at the bigger picture?

When parents make decisions that are not in the best interest of their child, the authorities and courts step in. Whether the child is alive or dead.
That is what is happening here.

Every news update makes this situation even sadder. HD is jumping from one spiral to the next sometimes only a day apart and is living with incredible uncertainty. Of course there's only one end result here but her journey to that end result and therefore Archie's is never certain because of all the appeals.

I would say you sound incredibly detached, this is a human parent, and I suspect she believes she's doing what she should for her son & family.

Unless you've experienced the same thing, which is doubtful, I'm not sure you can make this judgement call.
And I think you are ignoring that the relationship with the involved practitioners & family has clearly broken down & the support that should have been in place for the family possibly wasn't, which in turn makes these parents vulnerable.
If the parents have the right to make the appeals then this is their right. It's nothing to do with anyone else.

For those suggesting that it shouldn't have come to this. You're completely right in the sense that this isn't the way we want these things to turn out. Morally it feels wrong. But it's really very rare and I don't think it could have been avoided in practice in this particular case. If a dispute continues, eventually the only way it can be resolved is in the Supreme Court because it is fundamentally a question about applying the law. And if the European Convention on Human Rights applies in the UK, then it will always be possible to appeal to them about a right to life.

They don't seem to be making a great job of 'stepping in'.

It's the denial along with the determination not to allow any proper diagnostic examinations I find hard to grasp if this was a simple online challenge gone wrong.

No-one has the exact same experience, in the same way. It's just not possible.
Yea have an opinion, but whatever is going on for these individuals is really nothing to do with anyone else. Their processes are their own business.

You’re right. The video is glitchy on my phone and I heard her talking about secretions and saw the bag and jumped to bad conclusions.

WRT that video, his anterior pituitary hormones are gone as well (I mean, of course they are) given that he’s on replacement hydrocortisone and thyroxine.

I'm not sure how he could be moved. The amount of equipment that would need to go with him for a start. Surely the family understands that logistically it isn't possible...

Because they are being prevented from doing so by the various court actions.

BTW , I'm not advocating he should go to the Hospice -the Hospital has the Duty of Care and the courts have put in place that the withdrawel of life support is there .If he dies outside of the hospital it puts a load more legal investigation in place .

Hollie seems to think (because her Nurse Friend said) that he isn;t in organ failure .
He's got no chance of leavng the ward.

Will they withdraw his water and feed or just deal with the inevitable exodus?

Bizarre viewpoint. On that basis, we are none of us entitled to any opinion on vast swathes of what is reported in the news because inevitably we can't personally go through exactly the same experience. That is simply not a tenable argument.

I really don't think it would be possible... and have any hospices accepted Archie? Sometimes there is a wait because they are full.

Hollie has also said that she wants him to pass in a hospice as it would be a "dignified end". Pretty hurtful for the people who sat with their loved ones in ITU/PICU whilst their life support was removed. So, if someone dies in hospital, their death is not dignified? The staff will be bending over backwards to make sure it is as dignified as it can be.

I agree that it would be impossible to stop determined parents from posting identifying material on social media, but these companies would legally have to remove it and would presumably make efforts to ban the parents from their sites to stop them doing it again.

Importantly the MSM would not be publishing photos or doing interviews as has been happening. Most people know about this case from the papers and TV, not Facebook. Cutting off the oxygen of publicity would do a lot to calm these situations right down IMO. Maybe without th.e pressure of publicity and the expectations of others his parents might have been able to come to an agreement with the medics.

All of them? There’s hundred of highly skilled, very senior health professionals involved in his care, and they’re all making mistakes? I find that very unlikely.

All that matters here, all that should matter here, is what is best for Archie. His parents feel he should be kept on the vent because it’s what he would have wanted. The medical professionals know he will die, sooner or later, peacefully or not. The court has heard all the evidence and decided that continuing treatment is not in his best interest. That’s all. For all the other people involved, all the publicity and different courts and appeals. That’s all.

My heart goes out to Archie’s family. I can’t even imagine.