Archie Battersbee - Thread 4

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Archie Battersbee - Thread 3 http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/inthee_news/4601962-archie-battersbee-thread-3

Thanks for providing that, very informative.

I was keeping up with this case but haven't read the most recent legal documents. Has Archie been officially declared 'dead', to put it bluntly?

Because from what I understand, the issue here is that brain stem death couldn't be legally confirmed due to the appropriate test not being possible.

We don't know that that is the reason for this. If this were the result of a video streaming challenge, you would expect Archie at least to have had a phone with him in order to film it, and the evidence seems to be that he didn't.

If anyone is going to understand why she is fighting for her child, it is other mums on this site. She needs to be feel that she has done her best for him to make it easier to let him go. So she and her partner have all my love and understanding at this awful time

@RatsolutelyFabulous · your post will almost certainly be deleted because no-one is allowed to talk about the mother, even though her past isn’t just something she has talked about herself but is a matter of public record, iyswim.

I agree though that there will be an enquiry after this is all over, and at that point the past will almost certainly play a part in terms of the enquiry as to why Archie did what he did.

The kiwi farms thread looks like it’s inhabited by weird nut jobs, but the press articles sadly make for grim reading.

Thank you for clarifying as horrible it is to discuss. I think the court have made the right decision then. Very sad. Poor lad.

Even here on this thread, no.4, where the vast majority understand that dead is a reversible state, and that he is dead, there is so much wooly terminology.

I'm not going to quote people because it's all meant kindly, but i'm wondering if even the term 'Life Support' itself is enough to slightly shift the absolute truth of this situation in people's minds. Even ''kept alive'' ... he's not being kept alive. He's not alive. His body is attached to machines which mimic basic brain function. It's just machines now.

The ''Even IF he were to recover his life would be awful'' posts are frustrating me. It's like saying it about - i don't know - i don't want to be rude - insert your own word - something which isn't ever going to be alive again!

Sorry. I have this rant every couple of days it seems.
It's all just beyond belief now.

Thanks for the link @Cantanka

That decision was set aside by the Court of Appeal, specifically in relation to the declaration of death, so that no longer applies and Archie is officially alive.. However, I think the CA fully accepted the way the judgment dealt with the medical evidence otherwise.

I don't mean to have a go at any particular posters by the way.

I think the mother has been horribly manipulated, both by that detestable 'legal' group and by this wretched 'army'. The wretched army has no real skin in the game, do they? It's not their child so they can shout as loud as they want, feel superior to people calling for common sense action to turn off life support, and then go home when it's all over. That detestable legal group is pursuing their own ends, ends having nothing to do with Archie as a human being who is no longer alive, but that are only concerned with establishing legal precedents for their anti-choice, anti-contraception platforms. Hollie is simply a 'means to an end' for them, hell, they probably don't even consider her as an actual human being.

Hollie has been told what a wonderful mother she is because she 'keeps on fighting'. That a 'good mother' never gives up on their child. She's been fed lies about just what really constitutes death, given false hopes of some sort of recovery, and she's holding on to those lies to justify continuing to fight. Because that's what a 'good mother' would do.

At this point I think her mindset is that if she doesn't keep on fighting that means she's a 'bad mother' and that ending life support equates to her 'killing her own child'. I feel so terribly sorry for her. She's doing the wrong things for the wrong reason. I actually question her mental competency at this point.

Yes Quia, I've been put right on that. The judgement does explain the medical evidence very clearly though.

and i meant irreversible state
<face palm>

These are good points, I keep seeing this type of terminology as well, as if he is alive

Saliva is produced by six major salivary glands, three each side. Parotid, in your cheeks. Submandibular, under the lower jaw. Sublingual, under the tongue. Plus a whole bunch of minor salivary glands lining the cheeks. We produce and swallow it all the time, without realising.

Archie needs it suctioning for two reasons. Firstly, he no longer has an effective swallow, so is at risk of drowning in his own saliva. Secondly, his lilps aren't sealing together because the lip muscles are passive, so saliva will just flow out the front of his mouth. The first is the most risky, obviously.

It's not produced in the brain.

I suspect Dance has mixed up 'parotid' and 'pituitary'.

I think she's confusing the pituitary with the parotid gland. I believe that's under the ear and not controlled by the brain.

I can't believe people are actually accusing her of being attention seeking. So what if she's gone to the press over things in the past - lots and lots of parents of children with SEND end up going to the papers, as do parents when something goes wrong. I have no idea what she's been in for except some wrong medication.
I really think people have some NHS = angels thing going on. What has happened is really clear - communication and trust has broken down. Other parents 'being more dignified' is because they trusted the medical teams.
I had complete faith in the NHS until I didn't. I ended up going to our MP, CQC, solicitors about that team. I don't have any problems with rest of the NHS - I expect it's the same for Hollie.

I've been to my MP etc over my ds send. I fought through tribunals etc.

No one is suggesting not to pursue avenues available to you. What they are suggesting is there isn't a need to be so public about it every step of the way. And in this case Ms Dance has had people close to her exploiting her willingness to be very public and her mindset to get her in the media making outrageous accusations that are unfounded.

It isn't black and white that it's accept what's said or be vocal. You can be vocal and abdicate without being publicly inappropriate.

But she's NOT fighting for her child.

Her child has died. The medical evidence is overwhelming.

She's fighting for herself (even if she's convinced herself otherwise) to have more time, at vast expanse at the beside of a child who's legal (rather than clinical) death is being prolonged and in doing so is denigrating the medical professionals who've always put her child's best interests first.

How is having his family watch his body deteriorating in his best interests whilst undergoing hugely invasive treatment? Or having a picture with wasted limbs and a nappy plastered over the internet?

I'm very sorry that she is in this situation and I'm hugely sympathetic to the hurt she must be feeling, but that doesn't mean I can condone her choices and wider conduct.

Hollie needs to focus her anger on the online challenge that took her sons life, she is feeling guilty for not protecting him, so is clinging onto this hopelessness.
It is a sad fact that the NHS does not have an endless pit of money, what if you were told your child can't have the treatment that could save your childs life as it's has been spent on poor Archie who is brain dead, it is a decision those in the NHS have to deal with daily. We do not live in a world of endless funds now they are spending the depleted funds on solicitors. Hollies family need to take over, I know they want to support her but enough is enough, Archie's life has gone, it is is so very very sad, but his brain is dead. The NHS tried everything to save my Mum but life support was turned off and it was the heart-breaking right decision.
One small hope is that other's will know of this challenge and could save another child from this stupid 'game'.

Another facebook video of Archie, where she claims he's gained weight and that he's not on invasive treatments.

The hospital have already asked her not to do this for his privacy and dignity.

Go on Facebook and Google Archie Battersbee scroll down and you will find Kiwi

@OpinionsUnseen Thank you so much, that’s me going down the rabbit hole for the night!