Archie Battersbee - Thread 4

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Archie Battersbee - Thread 3 http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/inthee_news/4601962-archie-battersbee-thread-3

I don’t understand why the parents wouldn’t be allowed to take him to Turkey or whatever. We all know it’s pointless but if it’s true that Archie is technically dead anyway it won’t cause him any harm or pain? He is dead and not aware. Let them feel like they have done all they can for him.

I wouldn't blame the hospital for this. The courts don't take kindly to people who take pre-emptive action to frustrate court action. In this case, of course, pre-emptive action by the hospital would be final.

Because he wouldn't survive the journey. Because it's not in his interests and those are more important than the feelings of the parents.

Such a move would be for the benefit of his mum and not Archie. I don't think this specific questions has been tested legally but based on what the judges have said, it wouldn't be in his best interests, which are more important than his mother's wishes.

Her comments re "execution" are what I had in mind when I was writing that.

The "hospital" might not care but the individual staff members involved might. And if the hospital can hold up a protocol that's followed in every hospital in the same circumstances, it doesn't leave them open to accusations that they've deliberately hastened it/not given them time to say goodbye/been spiteful etc. That might help some of the staff - lots of people on this thread have already said that the team looking after Archie could be really struggling with all of this.

To my mind, it makes sense to have a protocol that can be followed. It protects both sides.

I'm sorry for your loss

Because it's not in his best interests. If a parent decided they wanted to dig up their child's body and put it on a plane and do what they wanted with it you would be surely horrified? This isn't any different.

The amount of staff and time that is required to even move him a small distance is incredible this is a no goer ever. His heart and body would give out long before getting there and how is it seen as less traumatic for your child to die alone on a plane than have them dignified surrounded in love in the room that's been home for many months?

Archie still deserves dignity and respect in death like everyone else.

A parents hurt feelings should never come before a child alive or dead, ever.

Because it is undignified and grotesque to cart a dead little boy around the world to interfere with his body.

Because they don't seem to think he'll be able to be moved to a hospice without going into cardiac arrest...its false hope again and its cruel. That's if they know the full details though. If anyone actually said it or it was said in passing

I don’t think they are winning. What they want is death re-defined to legally discount the brain. So a beating heart is enough to equal alive and have rights. That would eventually mean any foetus with a heart beat couldn’t legally be aborted. That’s their agenda. They DGAF about Archie, but his case is perfect to further their cause.

But at every single ruling, the courts have set aside the question of whether Archie is dead or not, effectively side stepping their despicable use of Archie and his vulnerable family, and ruled only on the question of whether continuing treatment is in Archie’s best interests or not, and found that it is not. Every ruling, every appeal has been the same. Even if the CLC’s filibustering does go on long enough for Archie’s heart to stop on it’s own, they’ve got nowhere legally with their anti-choice agenda. They really care nothing for for Archie, only using him to try and further their misogynistic cause. They care nothing for Hollie, but she’s an absolute gift for them - naive, vociferous, emotional, anti-authoritarian and very, very public. Fortunately, the processes have been followed perfectly, the courts have been excellent and they have been thwarted at every turn. I wish they could be stopped, it’s utterly despicable, but I don’t see how.

Yes the medical position is very different. Charlie wasn’t dead.

also @SpidersAreShitheads Charlie Gard’s parents had accepted that life support needed to be withdrawn by the time of the final court hearing. The problem is with Hollie Dance is that she will never accept this. Any delay at all will be used by her to frustrate the process yet further and put Archie at increasing risk of a violent cardiac arrest instead of the peaceful withdrawal of treatment which most believe to be in his best interests.

If the timescales are “brutal” to Hollie, it’s because she has shown herself to take advantage of any delay. This latest one to go to the ECHR by 9am I think was bloody generous given she was given 48 hours to do so by the Court of Appeal last week and chose not to.

Because he is a ward of court.

I’ve been in the situation of finding out at a 20 week scan that my baby was severely unwell and had no chance of being born alive and healthy

we were told, among other things, that babies don’t feel pain until around 23/24 weeks but after that, the abnormalities would likely mean he was feeling constant pain

We had a second and third opinion which were all coming to the same conclusion - we were advised to terminate what was a much wanted, long awaited IVF pregnancy

I posted on here at the time, knowing we were going to terminate, and I had several posts and DMs telling me doctors often get it wrong, brains can repair, the human body is an amazing thing etc etc - all people who knew nothing more than what I had written in my post and none of them doctors

I knew that I had to do the right thing so my child didn’t suffer, even if it caused me pain forever
but I will always wonder what the hell went through those posters heads to try and encourage me to make a baby continue in pain until an inevitable death.
I wonder if they are the same people joining these ‘armies’

My take on this is that the CLC have a lot to answer for. They have swooped in on a highly traumatised woman and taken advantage of her combative and outspoken nature, knowing she could be relied upon to keep the headlines going and publicise their cause in return for free legal representation. It would not have been difficult for them to persuade her that Archie is not dead (heart still beating, albeit artificially) and that brain stem death (even when proven) does not equate to death (see their website). A desperate mother could understandably be open to the idea that "only God can decide" if it gives her more time with her child before she has to face the inevitable. She has said more than once that she has not yet really processed what happened, and I believe this is due to the CLC's interference and opposition to the views/evidence of the medical profession. Many have said she does not listen - I think she does, but to the wrong people.

As harsh as it may sound, as soon as they launched the appeal with the Supreme Court the hospital should have made it clear that the planned withdrawal would go ahead as soon as the appeal ruling came through

I very much agree, and while I totally get why the hospital are bending over backwards it simply isn't doing any good - not for Hollie herself in the long run, and most especially not for Archie, whose court mandated best interests are being compromised at every turn

I stand by my view that the decisions made are now actively inviting further delay, and honestly don't believe it's the wisest route

I should say I sympathise with why Hollie is acting the way she is and may feel she is trying desperately to save his life. However there comes a point at which the court and hospital need to say it’s not fair on Archie to delay things any longer, and if delay will be the consequence of giving her “more time” with him, because that time will be used for further futile court applications, then sadly she shouldn’t be allowed that time.

@sparechange I'm so sorry you had to go through that and deal with awful people on top of it. Some people are genuinely so deluded. There is such a huge taboo around death that so many people won't accept it as an inevitable part of life.

The important point here is all the courts including the highest in the land do not believe what is currently happening is in the best interests of the child. That does not just mean they don't believe the hospital keeping him alive is not in his best interests, it also means they do not believe the actions to frustrate the process is in his best interests either.

After his heart stops, would it be ok for Hollie to keep him in a freezer at home for a bit? He wouldn’t be aware and it might give her some comfort

Sadly, hundreds of thousands of parents have to accept that their children have died every year. There's a reason that they don't all do this.

news.sky.com/story/archie-battersbees-parents-lose-supreme-court-bid-to-block-withdrawal-of-life-support-12664321

She is claiming Drs in Turkey and Japan have told her they have treatment that will help him recover. Either someone's lying to her or this is made up surely? No doctor in the world would say something like that about a patient they had not seen or had access to full medical records?

The problem with a case like this, where it goes to court and is splashed all over the media, is that most people have very little medical knowledge. They have no understanding of the complexity of keeping someone alive when their body is not able to support any of its vital functions. They have no understanding of how atrophied his muscles will be by now after three months of being in bed, and of how his organs will be starting to disintegrate inside his body. There can be no miracle for this child or hope of recovery because his body is already irreparably damaged. It's not a case of him being able to 'wake up' one day and be fine again. If he ever did regain consciousness - which he won't, because he's brainstem dead - he would never again live a normal life. Look at Kate Garraway's husband, who spent a year in hospital - he will never, ever live a normal, independent life again. His body is irreparably damaged.

TV medical dramas have a lot to answer for, I'm afraid, in creating a totally false impression amongst laypeople as to what is realistically medically possible.

This is why I personally think cases like this should never be allowed to go to court. A body of independent medical professionals should have ultimate authority - they have the knowledge to make these decisions and they should be trusted to do so. A family member in the depths of shock and grief is not in a position to make these choices and - as in this case - sometimes that grief prevents them from putting their child's interests first.

Now that it would crowdfund. Many of them will simply leave healthcare following this.

I don’t have two pennies to rub together, but maybe I’ll write. Maybe it will help just a little to know there are people out there who think you did an impossible job as well as it could be done. I suppose it sits using a CLC trick, but perhaps it will add a little balance?

So what is the likely timeline for the ECHR appeal?
This whole thing is barbaric.