Page 9 | Archie Battersbee - Thread 4

BreadInCaptivity · 2022-08-02T23:09:56+00:00

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EmeraldShamrock1 · 03/08/2022 10:20

F.
Thanks for the thread.

DancingUnderTheLights · 03/08/2022 10:21

It's such a sad situation. In a way, "fighting" for her son has given her something to focus her energy on. The alternative of accepting all is lost and giving up must feel unbearable. These people encouraging her are dreadful. They'll soon forget and move away to the next interest they find.

nolongersurprised · 03/08/2022 10:22

My questions were more about why the timelines here seem much shorter and quicker than seen in other cases like Charlie Gard - his family were given three days, even though the court had made the same ruling

I don’t know, but I wonder if it’s because Charlie Gard was dying rather than dead, and because Charlie’s clinical condition was initially unclear then changed (worsened) over time until the prognosis became obvious. That’s a lot more to process.

Whereas 3 days after the hanging, scans showed severe brain oedema and Archie was unresponsive with fixed, dilated pupils. His family was told he would not recover - and, nearly 4 months later nothing has changed. Except that he’s much thinner and his brain isn’t swollen now, but rotting and liquifying and dropping off down his spine.

MsBallen · 03/08/2022 10:22

Thornethorn · 03/08/2022 10:18

MsBallen

You're not protecting any principle on an incredibly catty and gossipy MN thread. It makes no difference how others have behaved. I have been in this position as a family and we didn't challenge it. We didn't behave 'better' and we certainly wouldn't deserve a thread like this if we had. She's doing the best for her child that she understands and the legal system is operating as it should. It's that simple. No need for you putting in your poisonous penny's worth on a thread she'll likely see if she searches her son's name. You're achieving nothing but toxicity and you're certainly not helping any parent. This thread is out of order in many of the comments, chillingly judgemental and should not stand. If you want to have a discussion about the legal implications you can start a new thread not linked to a mother who is in hell today.

She isn't doing her best. And she potentially is breaking libel laws in the bargain. By all means report any comment you want but how Dare you try and censor an important discussion.

itsgettingweird · 03/08/2022 10:22

That's why I think it's a bit brutal with how the hospital has handled it - her appeal at the Supreme Court thrown out yesterday, machines planned to be switched off this morning. Much as I think Hollie is not doing the right thing, I am struggling to justify the approach from the hospital too.

His machines were being switched off after a planned withdrawal of the meds doing his brain function on Monday.

The hostile haven't given her 24 hours notice. They have extended their care for near on 48 hours.

mydogisthebest · 03/08/2022 10:23

Strangeways19 · 03/08/2022 08:33

The whole thing is so devastating & just sad. Hollie is clearly not wanting to let go - this is devastating to any mother.
I think it's really sad that the end of life decision is in the hands of the court, it's just the wrong place for it to be.

I sincerely hope that the parents are getting good counselling to help them let go & take control of the decision making. I think it's easy to place blame but what I see is a mother having a massive mental break . And I don't think its right to judge her actions because she's not completely in control of them at this stage. She's being led by grief.

I hope she can reverse her thought patterns & finds peace within this incredibly tragic set of events.

The end of life decision would not be in the hands of the Court if parents listened to the doctors though would it?

nolongersurprised · 03/08/2022 10:25

TitoMojito · 03/08/2022 10:17

...and then because of that, the family get angry at the hospital and make accusations which frustrates the hospital and then we end up in a cycle, is what I meant.

Show quote history

Which is why social workers and chaplains are helpful as well - they’re not giving terrine news, just being supportive. I’m sure there’d be that support available for Hollie as well, if she’d accept it

henryhihat · 03/08/2022 10:26

Thornethorn · 03/08/2022 10:05

This thread is a disgrace. It shows the worst of human nature.

Mumsnet is supposed to be supportive to parents. I doubt any of you have spent a day in Hollie's position.

I will be reporting this thread and can't believe it's been allowed to stand with such personally vitriolic comments about a grieving mother.

She's a grieving mother who is absolutely not doing things in the best interests of her child. That's what this thread is about. Everyone on here has a huge amount of sympathy and empathy for her. But she needs to stop now.

bloodyplanes · 03/08/2022 10:26

Strangeways19 · 03/08/2022 08:33

The whole thing is so devastating & just sad. Hollie is clearly not wanting to let go - this is devastating to any mother.
I think it's really sad that the end of life decision is in the hands of the court, it's just the wrong place for it to be.

I sincerely hope that the parents are getting good counselling to help them let go & take control of the decision making. I think it's easy to place blame but what I see is a mother having a massive mental break . And I don't think its right to judge her actions because she's not completely in control of them at this stage. She's being led by grief.

I hope she can reverse her thought patterns & finds peace within this incredibly tragic set of events.

I don't agree. She has a history of behaving like this when she doesn't get her own way. Her comments about the staff providing round the clock futile care for her child are absolutely disgusting and grief does not excuse this.

nolongersurprised · 03/08/2022 10:27

.No need for you putting in your poisonous penny's worth on a thread she'll likely see if she searches her son's name

You sweet, summer child… this thread is very kind

Butitsnotfunnyisititsserious · 03/08/2022 10:28

I think it's really sad that the end of life decision is in the hands of the court, it's just the wrong place for it to be.

No, the wrong place for it to be is in the parents hands. Especially those who do not trust the doctors.

itsgettingweird · 03/08/2022 10:28

PeloAddict · 03/08/2022 10:18

Some people just won't accept it either
Totally different situation but I deal with people every day who ring me and it will be
People will literally argue that black is white even if I prove it isn't

I know exactly the type of situation you are describing.

Except they argue black is white.

You prove to them how back and white are different.

They accuse you of ignoring the grey.

You work with them to try and incorporate the white within the back (so they grey) and suddenly they accuse you of trying to follow very and meet a compromise because you said white in the first place.

It's a very manipulative form of gaslighting.

SpidersAreShitheads · 03/08/2022 10:29

nolongersurprised · 03/08/2022 10:22

My questions were more about why the timelines here seem much shorter and quicker than seen in other cases like Charlie Gard - his family were given three days, even though the court had made the same ruling

I don’t know, but I wonder if it’s because Charlie Gard was dying rather than dead, and because Charlie’s clinical condition was initially unclear then changed (worsened) over time until the prognosis became obvious. That’s a lot more to process.

Whereas 3 days after the hanging, scans showed severe brain oedema and Archie was unresponsive with fixed, dilated pupils. His family was told he would not recover - and, nearly 4 months later nothing has changed. Except that he’s much thinner and his brain isn’t swollen now, but rotting and liquifying and dropping off down his spine.

Yes, maybe. You might be right there. Very different cases and very different medical conditions, despite the rulings and the outcome being the same.

It feels as if there should be some kind of defined protocol for these situations, specifically set out to deal with these very sensitive cases where the families are challenging the hospitals through the courts.

Maybe there is? Not that I've heard though. I'm sure we would have heard if there was one.

I know if that were me, and I heard that another family who went to court multiple, multiple times the same way I did got to spend three final days with their child to say goodbye, and my child's machines were switched off literally the day after the appeal, I'd be extremely bitter. A defined protocol would be better for all concerned so there could be no ill feelings - it would also protect the hospital against claims that they rushed the end because they're monsters blah blah.

itsgettingweird · 03/08/2022 10:30

Thornethorn · 03/08/2022 10:18

MsBallen

You're not protecting any principle on an incredibly catty and gossipy MN thread. It makes no difference how others have behaved. I have been in this position as a family and we didn't challenge it. We didn't behave 'better' and we certainly wouldn't deserve a thread like this if we had. She's doing the best for her child that she understands and the legal system is operating as it should. It's that simple. No need for you putting in your poisonous penny's worth on a thread she'll likely see if she searches her son's name. You're achieving nothing but toxicity and you're certainly not helping any parent. This thread is out of order in many of the comments, chillingly judgemental and should not stand. If you want to have a discussion about the legal implications you can start a new thread not linked to a mother who is in hell today.

And those people who's name she printed online caring for her son who have kept him "alive" for months despite no brain activity.

Those same people she's accusing of trying to murder and execute her son.

Do they also not deserve the right to be spoken about respectfully at all times?

Grief doesn't excuse behaviour but it certainly explains it.

Butitsnotfunnyisititsserious · 03/08/2022 10:30

Thornethorn · 03/08/2022 10:18

MsBallen

You're not protecting any principle on an incredibly catty and gossipy MN thread. It makes no difference how others have behaved. I have been in this position as a family and we didn't challenge it. We didn't behave 'better' and we certainly wouldn't deserve a thread like this if we had. She's doing the best for her child that she understands and the legal system is operating as it should. It's that simple. No need for you putting in your poisonous penny's worth on a thread she'll likely see if she searches her son's name. You're achieving nothing but toxicity and you're certainly not helping any parent. This thread is out of order in many of the comments, chillingly judgemental and should not stand. If you want to have a discussion about the legal implications you can start a new thread not linked to a mother who is in hell today.

She's not doing her best. Accusing a hospital of executing a child is not doing her best. Encouraging vitriol towards the hospital is not doing her best. And who the hell do you think you are to say people cannot talk about this with differences of opinion? She put it in the public eye, she's inviting public opinion, not all will agree with her poor behaviour.

Pinkspice · 03/08/2022 10:30

Ellatella · 03/08/2022 09:25

Think about what you are saying. This is somebodies child and you're talking about him taking up an nhs bed and his treatment being pointless. Imagine that was your child and people were talking about him like that. As a mother she will be clinging to every little bit of hope. I understand doctors decision but people should show a bit of compassion and respect. If it were my child and you said something like that, it would not be taken well, and that's putting it very lightly.

Show quote history

Don't think you speak for everyone on MN. Some people have had to make this horrible decision to turn off machines because there was no hope. Parents cannot have final decisions about their own children in every case because they don't always know best. To pretend that NHS resources are unlimited is just nonsensical.

These doctors who are keeping a brain dead child's heart beating, are being distracted by court proceedings while other children are having to miss out on treatment. How would you like to have to tell other parents that their life saving operation cannot take place because there isn't an ITU bed? Respect for parents' feelings is not as important as treatment for a desperately sick child. These children that we don't hear about are all equally special to their parents. They all have a story too. But they have hope of survival. Tragically Archie Battersbee doesn't. To pretend this is not the case doesn't help anyone: the doctors, the parents, the child himself and any children that are missing out on treatment.

PartyAtSueGrays · 03/08/2022 10:31

I've been in this situation. I was given the facts and acted in my child's best interests by allowing the machines to be switched off. 25 years later I'm still grieving.

She needs to let the poor lad go

nolongersurprised · 03/08/2022 10:32

it would also protect the hospital against claims that they rushed the end because they're monsters blah blah

She’s already calling them murderers who want to “exercute” her son. I doubt the hospital gives much of a fuck about what she throws at them afterwards, and I’m sure she’ll try something. It won’t be funded by the CLC though, they’ll be off looking for the next case

EnidSpyton · 03/08/2022 10:33

This woman's son has died in what was clearly a suicide attempt.

She is traumatised, in denial, and seeking every route she can to pretend this nightmare hasn't happened.

Do I agree with the way she speaks about medical staff? No. But I've never walked in her shoes.

None of us know how we would react in her situation. We all like to think we'd be dignified and accepting and grateful but we just don't know. People passing judgement on and spouting vitriol at a woman who is living a nightmare none of us would wish on our worst enemy need to just reflect on that for a minute. The medical staff are, I'm sure, also finding this very difficult, and no, it's not fair on them either, but they will have had training and support and counselling to deal with these sorts of scenarios, which are fairly common when you work in ICU. Archie's mum hasn't had any of that. She's just blindly groping her way through a situation I'm sure she never imagined she'd be in, hoping for a miracle that I'm sure deep down she knows won't happen, but can't acknowledge. It's heartbreaking. Compassion is what is needed here, not vitriol.

What really concerns me is that there is clearly not an effective legal system in place to deal with these sorts of scenarios. When there is unequivocal medical evidence that someone is brain stem dead, verified by several independent medical professionals, of course, with agreed upon testing procedures - that should be enough to force the ending of all medical treatment, regardless of the family's beliefs. Why any of this needed to come to court in the first place is beyond me, and doesn't serve anyone's interests.

MsBallen · 03/08/2022 10:34

PartyAtSueGrays · 03/08/2022 10:31

I've been in this situation. I was given the facts and acted in my child's best interests by allowing the machines to be switched off. 25 years later I'm still grieving.

She needs to let the poor lad go

I'm so sorry for your loss 🌹

itsgettingweird · 03/08/2022 10:35

PartyAtSueGrays · 03/08/2022 10:31

I've been in this situation. I was given the facts and acted in my child's best interests by allowing the machines to be switched off. 25 years later I'm still grieving.

She needs to let the poor lad go

Butitsnotfunnyisititsserious · 03/08/2022 10:35

PartyAtSueGrays · 03/08/2022 10:31

I've been in this situation. I was given the facts and acted in my child's best interests by allowing the machines to be switched off. 25 years later I'm still grieving.

She needs to let the poor lad go

So sorry for your loss

loislovesstewie · 03/08/2022 10:36

PeloAddict · 03/08/2022 10:18

Some people just won't accept it either
Totally different situation but I deal with people every day who ring me and it will be
People will literally argue that black is white even if I prove it isn't

Exactly, when I was working, I would explain clearly what could/couldn't happen . There was always one who would say that s/he knew someone whose Aunt Mabel had said that exactly the opposite was possible. I used to dread customers turning up for interview with a friend in tow, who would often disrupt the interview by arguing , contradicting and telling everyone that I was an idiot, often including 4-letter words. I often wanted to ask them, when I have been proved right, how they felt. I didn't,of course, but oh how I wanted to.

MsBallen · 03/08/2022 10:37

Sorry but I disagree. I used to work in palliative care (mostly dealing with motor neurons) life support machines are switched off surprisingly often and it's very rare to have a family rally against all medical and legal opinions the way this family are. So we can't say you don't know how you would react in this situation because actually to react the way his family has is out of the ordinary.

itsgettingweird · 03/08/2022 10:38

EnidSpyton · 03/08/2022 10:33

This woman's son has died in what was clearly a suicide attempt.

She is traumatised, in denial, and seeking every route she can to pretend this nightmare hasn't happened.

Do I agree with the way she speaks about medical staff? No. But I've never walked in her shoes.

None of us know how we would react in her situation. We all like to think we'd be dignified and accepting and grateful but we just don't know. People passing judgement on and spouting vitriol at a woman who is living a nightmare none of us would wish on our worst enemy need to just reflect on that for a minute. The medical staff are, I'm sure, also finding this very difficult, and no, it's not fair on them either, but they will have had training and support and counselling to deal with these sorts of scenarios, which are fairly common when you work in ICU. Archie's mum hasn't had any of that. She's just blindly groping her way through a situation I'm sure she never imagined she'd be in, hoping for a miracle that I'm sure deep down she knows won't happen, but can't acknowledge. It's heartbreaking. Compassion is what is needed here, not vitriol.

What really concerns me is that there is clearly not an effective legal system in place to deal with these sorts of scenarios. When there is unequivocal medical evidence that someone is brain stem dead, verified by several independent medical professionals, of course, with agreed upon testing procedures - that should be enough to force the ending of all medical treatment, regardless of the family's beliefs. Why any of this needed to come to court in the first place is beyond me, and doesn't serve anyone's interests.

Yet people are happy to excuse Ms Dance of accusing hospital staff of trying to murder and execute her son because she grieving.

This was dealt with properly. A court order was given.

The reason this has continued is because of the appeals process that is allowed to challenge decisions of court.

The only way to prevent this situation would be to refuse any applications to appeal and that removes the whole basis of our democratic country we are all grateful for.