Nadim wading into Oxbrdige entrance debate

[mids2019]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10793175/Thinktank-Oxbridge-discriminating-against-grammar-schools-unfairly-impact-black-pupils.html

DM article here so maybe a bit of bias and the article is a little confused.

I get the impression that our new education Secretary (who is a big fan of grammar schools) has started to notice the diversity policies explicitly stated by Oxbridge in its attempts to take in students from comprehensives/deprived backgrounds.

I noted his dislike of discrimination of any form and I am taking this as a warning to top universities not to engage in activity which may be perceived as positive discrimination.

I understand that if grammar schools seem to be a link to allowing ethnic minorities to gain Oxbrdige places this is a good thing however it would seem not many from grammar schools are truly deprived socially so the situation is complex.

Do you think the government should be involving itself with this vexed issue of leaving to HE leaders.

(I think Nadim's inbox maybe overflowing with a mail's from concerned grammar/independent school parents whose children may not have got their university of choice)

Hmm. There may be a point. I did a few days supply in a selective grammar in Halifax - large proportion of kids from an Asian background, definitely not the white middle class, tutored for entrance exams that can be the stock image of a grammar school.

But the VC of Cambridge did not mention grammar schools. He said -

‘We have to keep making it very, very clear we are intending to reduce over time the number of people from independent schools.’

As for the under represented ethnic demographic argument - my take on that is that grammars are not 'diverse' as such, but (in London anyway) have high proportions from Indian /other Asian backgrounds. It's exactly the same picture in the more selective independents. So that argument doesn't wash - the 'diversity' I assume they are looking for and the groups who are still underrepresented in terms of Oxbridge admissions - ie. black African or Caribbean - are also not particularly represented at the grammars (or selective independents). Oxbridge have plenty applying from Indian, Chinese and Korean backgrounds - my own DC included in one of those demographics. If they want to do 'social engineering,' at least look in the right places!

@panda55

I thought it interesting and maybe not particularly diplomatic for the VC to make an unambiguous commitment to reduce independent school numbers at Cambridge. (You could easily have said increasing the proportion of state school students)

I don't know if the phrase has been taken out of context but it does seem like giving a red rag to a bull for independent schools. How do we think the leaders of independent schools (or indeed parents) are going to react? I would imagine the heads of Eton and such will give a response to the VC in question stating that this is a discriminatory policy.

I think our current cabinet (with a disproportionate number of private school members including Nadim) may be thinking of it is government's responsibility to step in. I am sure there are many influential members of society who have children at private schools that are well placed to put prepare on the government to 'rein in' perceived anti private school policies (or indeed grammar).

I also wonder if such an overt goal of reduction of private school students at Cambridge will result in cynicism from private school rejects as they will wonder whether the rejection was solely due to not being the best candidate.

A higher proportion of state school students means a smaller proportion of private school students. If the cabinet or private schools need to hear it voiced as 'increasing state proportion' rather than 'reducing private' then they really must ask what the value of their education was if they can't work out they're the same thing.

Maybe NZ could have a word with his HE minister and OfS cronies who keep telling us to increase participation amongst those from disadvantaged backgrounds.

It's almost a Matt Lucas sketch - 'we must increase decrease disadvantaged advantages people going to not going to university...'

I think independent schools shot themselves in the foot with their massive grade inflation during the teacher assessed grades period during lockdown.
A lot of university admission tutors were very angry at the perceived 'cheating' by private schools
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/private-schools-gamed-covid-rules-to-give-their-pupils-more-top-a-levels-6z0z6w9r5
it has made Oxbridge more determined than ever to widen access

Yup, it's this. A family member got 3 As at A Level and they are most definitely not A material. But they went to private school so it was all sorted for them really.

I am all for positive discrimination for children from disadvantaged backgrounds. My tutor at university told me in our first meeting that I had been positively discriminated in recruitment, as I went to one of the worst comprehensive schools in the country. I had guessed as much because my offer grades were so low. They just liked me and my ethos and wanted to give me a shot. I grabbed it with both hands.

I then spent fifteen years of my career helping children in schools like mine, with even lower socio-economic backgrounds reach for those places. So it was a good investment, I think.

If we have a Secretary of State for education, in charge of state schools, who does not aspire for state educated students to be proportionately represented at the top universities then he should not be in the job. In simple maths, if state educated students are ever to be represented those universities in proportion to their numbers, then the number of privately educated students there needs to fall. It isn’t about positive discrimination, it’s about looking at each entrant’s grades and achievements in context. It is contextual admissions, not a policy of positive discrimination. An 18 year old at a poorly achieving state school, who has been in care who achieves three As is likely to be significantly brighter and more capable than a private school applicant with the same grades.

In principle yes. But the VC is simply making a point that state school per se does not = disadvantaged. It's far more nuanced than that. And let's be honest the VC understands this far better than NZ - which he should tbf: a Minister can only ever have a very broad top level understanding of such a wide brief.

@Prudencia

I think there is something to that; it certainly didn't strengthen private schools' position

I still think that this may get political in that private schools are going to increasingly point out perceived discrimination to the governement.

If Nadim is supporter of grammar schooling then he certainly won't like any Oxbridge anti grammar bias as this undermines his view of 'flagship schools'

Contextual admissions is not anti-grammar bias.

Students from Grammar schools get contextual offers. It's not just done by school but by postcode and other factors such as being a young carer. Even students from private schools get them.
No one is getting 'disadvantaged' unless you believe money should be able to buy your a place at Oxbridge. It's just that the playing field has been levelled so less well off students can play the game now too.

It si a complex issue. In the USA if you are Asian/Chinese you get minus points for college as tghose people do well [because they work harder than many whites and others in my view] and those from other BAME groups get positive credits to help them in. Where I live in London where most peoplea re not white there were not that many boys in my sons' private school who were white -= at one point my son was the only white boy in the class and most other parents were of Asian origin, busting a gut to pay school fees. (100% failure to get into Oxbridge in my twins' year by the way which is must worse than local state schools - my twins did not try and may be no boy that year was up to scratch)

The kind of education & opportunities a young person gets at a comprehensive school in my local area is worlds apart from what they get in a grammar school. Dh and I have experience both as a teacher & parents in all 3 sectors. Those from low income families in deprived areas often won’t even apply/get to grammar school but for those who do, they have a massive advantage over your average comp student.

@panda55 A lot of pupils from Asian backgrounds may be applying to Oxbridge but they are not getting in on a proportional basis at all.

It s a complex issue and I think labelling all ethnic minorities in the same category as far as diversity is concerned is far too broad an approach.

I think the article does lose some questions about the definition of diversity and which parts of society any impulsivity drives need to focus on.

It would seem you are pitting disadvantaged white children a against middle class ethnic minority children in terms of representation at Oxbridge. Personally I feel the main disadvantage to be concerned about is social deprivation for any ethnicity and there is a limited amount of deprivation associated with the grammar system.

Am not that knowledgable on the management of universities so apologies for asking - what influence can NZ et al actually have on Oxbridge admissions? Are the universities not fully independent of the government and can do what they like despite Nadim’s wishes?

@VirginiaWr

Political pressure really. As Secretary of State for Education I would think he would be in his rights to write to the head of any state HE institution with at least a view point. I think the interesting point was that Basin did not give support to the VC (not full hearted any way). NZ could have easily said 'I fully support the VC's principled ambition to increase inclusivity at Cambridge and I am well aware of the long-standing issue of those from deprived backgrounds finding it difficult to find places'. However he mentions just the fact children from deprived backgrounds are attending university (no specification of which) and he deplore s discrimination of any form which I take included discrimination against independent school applicants. (Of course it is a politicians answer and nuanced but I think there is asubtext)

It's not true that all independent schools inflated grades last year - although it obviously makes for another incendiary headline. Sure, certain schools may have done this, but so did many state schools (one round here was giving out As and A stats like Smarties and even the students themselves were freely admitting it).

At the most selective independents (which is where most will be applying to Oxbridge from anyway) - ie. St Paul's Girls, Westminster, KCS, G&L and quite a few others at the top of the league tables - these schools could not inflate grades because there is a matter of decimal points between results at say, Westminster or St Paul's etc in any given year. Margins are tight and league table positions fiercely contested between these most academic schools. So if a school such as CLBS, that might get 80 % A / A star at A-level in a normal year, suddenly inflated its grades by more than a few percent, it could overtake somewhere like SPGS - and that would cause an outrage in certain circles of parents and teachers, let's put it that way. These schools watch each other like hawks and prospective parents watch the league tables like even more sharp-eyes hawks!

My DC is at 'one of those schools.' In one of his subjects all 15 of them were predicted and working at A star, but the school didn't want to give out all A star and risk the hassle of an investigation by the exam board, so they gave five of them out of the 15 an A grade. Which would be fine, we're it not not for the fact that this school did formal exams on the full curriculum as if A-levels were happening and students were formally told grades would be 100% based on these exams. When students got their marks for the exams in this subject, all 5 awarded an A had got the over 90% and very similar, if not the same, as those awarded the A star grades. They all compared their certificates on results day! So the 5 who were awarded As appealed. In Stage 1, the school still refused to change the grades. Stage 2 meant sending the exam scripts to the board, which they did and all 5 grades were put up to an A star within a couple of weeks!

So it does irk me when people say "private schools all inflated grades..." In my experience it was the opposite. If my DC had not appealed, that A grade may well have meant they didn't get an Oxbridge offer - as realistically, from that type of school, they need a full sweep of A stats these days.

Sorry for the rant!

@panda55

What do you make of the statement by the Cambridge VC about the reduction in private school numbers? Is this a concern for those highly selective private schools mentioned or is the school body sanguine about numbers holding up?

I think there is a question of which private schools are going to be sending fewer to Oxbridge if the Cambridge VC is as committed as he appears.

Universities are autonomous, but it's a very very highly regulated sector. In order to charge fees of £9250 unis must satisfy the Office for Students (a Gov agency) that they will close any gaps in access (as well as a whole heap of other conditions) to their satisfaction.

So it does irk me when people say "private schools all inflated grades..." In my experience it was the opposite. If my DC had not appealed, that A grade may well have meant they didn't get an Oxbridge offer - as realistically, from that type of school, they need a full sweep of A stats these days.

In the country as a whole though CAGs at private schools were proportionally much higher than at state schools.

How can it be discrimination when such a teeny number go to independent schools (sorry can't be bothered to look up all the figures) compared to comps.

Stands to reason that there should be more from comps. And in the end we should get a good and interesting mix of successful people out the other end not like the over priveleged twats in Gov - if you have had private schooling through out and then off to Oxbridge, one set of oak panelled historic buildings for another, you will appear very intelligent but judging by Gov's results that is purely an excellent education rather than brains.

How can it be discrimination when such a teeny number go to independent schools (sorry can't be bothered to look up all the figures) compared to comps

Because 80% of kids at private school will get the grades required - they select. Comprehensives don't. With the best will in the world do you really think an open access comprehensive which admits all abilities will ever be able to get 80% of its cohort top grades?

Add in that private generally offer mainly A levels in what used to be called facilitating subjects, while a comprehensive or sixth form college will offer a much wider range of qualifications that wouldn't be suitable for Oxbridge and it's fairly obvious why private schools are over-represented (though they are not the majority it should be noted).

And then you add in the whole confidence, social capital, lack of diversity in small town England....