Nadim wading into Oxbrdige entrance debate

[mids2019]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10793175/Thinktank-Oxbridge-discriminating-against-grammar-schools-unfairly-impact-black-pupils.html

DM article here so maybe a bit of bias and the article is a little confused.

I get the impression that our new education Secretary (who is a big fan of grammar schools) has started to notice the diversity policies explicitly stated by Oxbridge in its attempts to take in students from comprehensives/deprived backgrounds.

I noted his dislike of discrimination of any form and I am taking this as a warning to top universities not to engage in activity which may be perceived as positive discrimination.

I understand that if grammar schools seem to be a link to allowing ethnic minorities to gain Oxbrdige places this is a good thing however it would seem not many from grammar schools are truly deprived socially so the situation is complex.

Do you think the government should be involving itself with this vexed issue of leaving to HE leaders.

(I think Nadim's inbox maybe overflowing with a mail's from concerned grammar/independent school parents whose children may not have got their university of choice)

@Peaseblossum22 - Oxford and Cambridge expect the same high A-level results from both state and private school applicants.

Agreed, our school see it as a moral obligation to take all our students who want to stay and manage a 4.5 average - with a requirement for higher grades on specific subjects. We don't get 'flooded with high achieving kids' but they do travel from all over because of our wide offer and pastoral reputation.

So, you could argue that “positive discrimination” at Oxford and Cambridge is actually just “acknowledging pre-existing bias and trying to tackle it.” Or, of course, you could move the goalposts again to ensure continued bias and argue the problem is the exams aren’t good enough, because too many state school students are getting high grades.

There are some exceptions if you meet the criteria

I think dc state school has got the right approach, no barrier to grades due to the school but re interview can’t say re confidence but they do need to show evidence of high interest in subject

What exceptions marsha?

Last year I knew none of this but since were in the midst it’s fresh in my mind

We had a representative from Oxford college do an info thing and there was a slide re where grades will be lowered - eg low income (under £25k?), first in family to go to university, a couple of others I can’t recall

This is of course true . I actually think that that Oxbridge are on the right track and that their more in depth admissions process allows them to make more nuanced judgements. But as one recent thread showed FOI requests mean that once parents discover that their dc scored much more highly on the entrance exams and academic scores but were marked down by the social background scores then they are going to risk anger and people choosing to not apply ( but that may be fine )

the problems come lower down at the next tier which select much more by grades., my ds is at Durham , as I was in the 1980s, the social mix was much greater then than now. The university is doing a lot of outreach and the standard offer of A*AA is reduced to ABB I think for contextual and some local schools are guaranteed offers but what that means is that you get polarisation at either end which is not good either .,

i don’t know what the answer is but I just don’t think it should be landed entirely on the universities to correct this when they are the end of the process. These systems are very expensive to run and the government cannot just wash their hands of it. Arguably as independent organisations the universities are free to take who they want. There are rumours that some are thinking of leaving UCAS in order to have more freedom over how they run admissions , the problem comes back to funding again.

@MarshaBradyo - are you sure you are not confusing chance of getting an interview with A-level grade expectations? Because the Oxford and Cambridge websites both explicitly state they require all candidates to be predicted to meet the grade expectations for the course, but will take contextual considerations into account when assessing which of the candidates expected to obtain those grades will be interviewed.

I think there must be some confusion. All admissions to first year undergraduate courses are on the basis of meeting the standard offer.

Here is the Cambridge University page on contextual data considered, how and when. Which bit of this is unfairly biased, given the expectation that these flagged students must all be achieving the highest A-level grades, must impress at interview, must perform well in aptitude tests and, if Cambridge, probably also Step papers? Seems like there are still massively high hurdles to be overcome and that grammar school and privately educated applicants are still likely to overcome them in far higher numbers…

Here: www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/applying/contextual-data

www.corpus.cam.ac.uk/sites/default/files/downloads/session_1_-_contextual_data.pdf

this is a useful summary showing the process, how data is used etc for both Oxford and Cambridge .

I looked again it’s for other universities, we had two evenings one just general UCAS

Leeds? Or others do for this. But yeh not for Oxbridge

That isn't correct. Offers are the same. Oxbridge do not do contextual offers. They do consider context when examining GCSE results in terms of offer to interview but I can tell you from bitter experience that when your DC is rejected the reason given will be their predicted grade profile and GCSE profile putting them in the 'lower quintile' of results. In other words he would have had to have done an extra barnstorming interview because of his 5 in GCSE music and because school applied algorithms were pre applied to CAGs leading to 8s rather than 9s and 7s rather than 8s in other subjects --- when he had no music teacher for 2 years. That is extraordinarily unlikely to happen in a fee paying school

I am sure Cambridge took on some comprehensively educated DCs for its most competitive subjects. But not sure your average Oxbridge don even comes from a background where they truly appreciate the barriers even an ordinary, average comp faces, let alone one in a deprived area such as, say, Great Yarmouth or Blackpool.

Sorry, bit late to the party there! Yes, other unis do contextual offers.

grammar school and privately educated applicants are still likely to overcome them in far higher numbers…

this is my point is why is this? Our state funded education system should make sure people are educated to the same level as grammar and independents. Maths is a good example, maths is very high level at Cambridge very fast , very intense, they need to be at this level to cope . So should the universities provide bridging for state educated candidates ( I think Oxford are going this ) or should they just lower the standard of the course ? Or should the state step up and provide our dc with the opportunity to reach this level. Why should the universities have to compensate for the shortcomings of the state education system.

Independent schools have the funding to have extra Oxbridge classes for a start...

Here is Handscombe's letter to the Times.

@Peaseblossum22 - did you not bother to read the link I supplied? The proportion of children who have been in care, on FSM, etc, etc, is far higher in schools which are not grammar schools and private schools. How many children in the care system have obtained scholarships to any sort of a private school?!

Do you realise how badly funded state sixth forms are pease??

Zahawi and co - once again - are not talking about grammars. Zahawi specifically agreed with the don who said the 'true disadvantaged' were boys from exclusive public schools who might now have to slum it at St Andrew's.

Anecdata alert - I do wonder whether the impact of interviews being online for 2021 entry may have been a factor in the 'balance' of students admitted. In-person interviews, complete with staying in [architecturally intimidating / unfamiliar in many cases] colleges and mixing with [often highly confident and polished] other interviewees is a very different process from sitting in a familiar room at school / at home and talking to an individual interviewer. It may have allowed some applicants to shine who might otherwise have been overawed and uncomfortable.

Locally, the - good, but not traditionally Oxbridge-successful - comprehensive had an absolutely bumper year of admissions last year. I know most of the the kids involved - nice, unassuming, exceptionally bright, not very sophisticated products of a largely seventies-built block of a school in a medium-sized town. I wonder - and as I say, this is anecdata - whether their performance compared with privately-educated, perhaps boarding, peers perhaps more used to mock / real Gothic architecture, with a very different level of social polish and panache would have been so good in a face to face residential interview setting?

In a normal year, these kids would definitely have got the required grades - a good number do from the school do every year - but may well have fallen at that interview hurdle.

Our per pupil funding means we are now raising average class sizes in our sixth form. The popular subjects suffer as our school chooses not to axe MFL , dance and music so they continue on handfuls of students. Law, psychology, sociology, economics A level groups are 25+. Maths is around 18-20. History runs on one instead of two groups so certain subject combinations are closed off.

I think the Cambridge foundation year is an interesting concept, btw.

www.foundationyear.cam.ac.uk/

I hope that, if successful, it is expanded to all degree subjects including Maths and Sciences. It seems an efficient way of collecting together students of high potential from difficult backgrounds for education in an institution well placed to meet their needs - rather than hoping a large number of individual schools will be able to effectively meet the needs of one or two possible 'outliers' while also providing for the needs of the rest of the huge range of ability, needs and aspirations of 17/18 year olds.

The one MNer who has a DC (that I know of ) who applied for this was rejected so it doesn't have a very broad sweep. I think it is good but don't think foundation degrees are for everyone and still seem to need nouse and significant support. State school pupils predicted 3 starred As at A Level and with a slew of 8s and 9s at GCSE are still being rejected in (disproportionately) large numbers after interviews.

The attitude of the don who said the new disadvantaged are privileged Eton boys is a concern - does he carry these attitudes into interview contexts?

Piggy, I agree that it isn't 'the answer', and I do think that there are disproportionate barriers to 'ordinary' - non-selective - state school applicants at every stage in the process:

• Aspiration
• Choosing to apply
• Understanding of the application process, including preparation for entrance tests
• Interview preparation and familiarity
• Self-confidence and self-presentation in an unfamiliar residential setting
• Academic preparation for GCSEs, A-levels and extra tests such as STEP

IIRC, those state pupils who DO get in perform disproportionately well, given their A-level grades [might be over all universities, not Oxbridge in particular?] so it is not that by admitting more of these students the universities risk lowering its final academic standards....

We’re using a non selective state so this is interesting

I’d say maybe over half are met, but the interview stage I can’t judge as yet