Nadim wading into Oxbrdige entrance debate

[mids2019]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10793175/Thinktank-Oxbridge-discriminating-against-grammar-schools-unfairly-impact-black-pupils.html

DM article here so maybe a bit of bias and the article is a little confused.

I get the impression that our new education Secretary (who is a big fan of grammar schools) has started to notice the diversity policies explicitly stated by Oxbridge in its attempts to take in students from comprehensives/deprived backgrounds.

I noted his dislike of discrimination of any form and I am taking this as a warning to top universities not to engage in activity which may be perceived as positive discrimination.

I understand that if grammar schools seem to be a link to allowing ethnic minorities to gain Oxbrdige places this is a good thing however it would seem not many from grammar schools are truly deprived socially so the situation is complex.

Do you think the government should be involving itself with this vexed issue of leaving to HE leaders.

(I think Nadim's inbox maybe overflowing with a mail's from concerned grammar/independent school parents whose children may not have got their university of choice)

Struggling educationally is not always a proxy for intelligence. Likewise being very high achieving from an advantaged background.

It’s tricky

we have used both sectors the state is not holding back the dc wrt Oxbridge. He’s in the system to apply with their support, whether he gets in (or even if he wants to leave London over say UCL is another matter) but the academic side is good

private has the extras which are very good

but also private has a different intake so this will be reflected in proportion

to take one Dc’ school v the other to expect same results isn’t credible

now in 2022 can do realtively real exams even if much easier this year

They aren't much easier. The grade boundaries will also adjust to make it fair for 20/21/22 cohorts.

The aim should be university entrance proportional to the population.

PP funding can be used as the school sees fit for the pupils in question. Bright but poorer pupils might be given access to equipment or trips they might be unable to afford, for example. It's not a case of 'well, they're clever, why do they need help?'. You might be better to ask why rich people, being so very clever, need to spend so many thousands on educating their equally clever children when there are perfectly good secondary schools all around the country.

Hercis I tihnk that was my comment. I think they only have to do part of the suyllabus. If we revert to the 2019 percentages for A sand A* I will be satisfied that this year was not easier.

They don't have to do part of the syllabus. In most subjects the advance information hasn't cut much out at all.

I see why you may think that pegging grades to a point between 2019, 2020 & 2021 feels like its making this year easier. Look on the other side, it's making this cohort fairer long term with 2020 and 2021.

Why only revert to 2019 percentages at A and A*?

@dahliamacnamara do you think that the state school cohort as a whole is identical to the private school cohort? I’m not so certain (and I say that as someone who was state educated, as is my DS).

I couldn't say how they compare, and neither could anyone else, given that the educational experiences on offer are by design quite different. My personal experience of privately educated individuals vs state ones doesn't lead me to conclude that there's any notable intellectual superiority in the former.

Entrance exams play a role

In schools with exams and high number of applications you’ll get a different intake to state which works on catchment basis alone

grammar is similar but I’ve not used that system, but if I compare the two secondary we are using you wouldn’t expect same Oxbridge proportion by virtue of intake. One is selective the other isn’t

School entrance exams play a role in sorting those children who take them. They don't however define those who do not.

It’s not about defining children but it does impact the proportion of Oxbridge between schools - it won’t be the same due to intake

But the VC is simply making a point that state school per se does not = disadvantaged.

But arguably private school does = advantaged. So it seems perfectly reasonable to adjust for that.

There is a proportion of families in the U.K. that do not value education or aspire to university - for many reasons, some of which are perfectly sensible (I.e. family business , desire to pursue a trade etc). Most of these families will not be forking out for a private school education. The majority of parents paying for private school see university as the goal. If you enforce ratios then it would mean that 60% of private school students would be denied a place at university (as only 40% of kids in the U.K. go). Given that many of these schools are selective with entrance exams requiring an above average level of intelligence this would simply not make sense.

The worst part about this is that effectively we are saying that our state education system is not good enough . Why should the universities who are actually independent organisations pick up the tab, both financially and socially, for the shortcomings of the state education system that has children for 14 years .

I agree that selection systems should iron out selection bias from things like extra curriculars etc and also ensuring that bright dc from all backgrounds actually apply but this is not the universities fault. Effectively the government are passing the buck to a sector that is already starting to crack.

The intake is different and the path is too, which is fine

to give the very good comprehensive as an example anyone who lives in catchment (which changes) can go. This includes people from high income and low. You can definitely go into A level, get A* and get support for Oxbridge application process

You can also switch and do btec, apprenticeship etc. The good thing is all students are supported and helped to feel good whether it’s top university or work

In comparison to a school that is highly selective and won’t really allow grades going down too much

To force the same proportion wouldn’t work

We are not saying that at all - Zahawi is because it suits a political agenda.

Perhaps instead he could fund state schools at the level of private schools per pupil.

No one is forcing anything Marsha but at the moment it is wildly disproportionate, not just a bit. A lot of good state school pupils are getting as far as interviews and then falling at that hurdle . A problem in part lies with interviewer bias for a certain type of - actually highly coachable- interview style and a kind of supreme confidence that, for example, Eton, imbues in its boys . The whole process is intimidating. The application system is unique , pretty opaque and arcane - all of these things do mitigate against students who are just one of many in a school. I think the whole system of admissions needs a complete overhaul.

but local schools are selective at sixth form. Our local ‘leafy comp’ is much more selective at sixth form than both the local independents . Anyone who is not likely to cope is kicked out / ‘not offered a sixth form place’ and the place is flooded with high achieving kids who travel from all over. In fact all the local schools around here do this to a greater or lesser extent.

there is no obligation at sixth form to take everyone in catchment that obligation ends at 16 so non academic dc , like one of mine, are left high and dry and travelling miles to local colleges with less than stellar results in BTECs .

Who is “we”? It doesn’t appear to be the Vice Chancellor of Cambridge saying that. He seems perfectly happy with increasing the number, and therefore proportion, of state school entrants. Which implies the bias is coming from disgruntled parents of children at private schools, who are intent on arguing that a state education will never be good enough and should, not could, always be a disadvantage.

I agree the system is complex

I find it baffling to a certain extent. Where I studied you get a mark after exams and if you are over the cut off you get in - eg all students over 156 are in (this isn’t fixed as numbers change each year). No interview, predicted grades, personal statements etc

But the state school is dealing with dc process well from what I can see. Each stage has workshops to help them. On interview technique I think they’ll do the same - practice workshops not up to that stage yet

So process is laid out for them. As for confidence I can’t compare yet really

Some of my sons' school friends left after GCSEs (fee paying private school but not with particularly high grades eg 100% Oxbridge failure in my twins' year although my twins did not try so they were not amongst that) for leading state schools as there is a vast selection in London from those specialist maths sixth form schools in inner London to local Catholic sixth forms never mind all the state grammars. Go up to my native Newcastle or my parents Bishop Auckland and Sunderland there is not quite the same choice whereas my parents did the 11+ in areas where just about no one had any money (i.e. a pure grammar school system) and were lifted out of poverty in a way I don't think the state comprehensives up there do as when I have checked their university entrance today it is not as good as in the 1940s. However I believe the Sutton trust has calculated that areas with only state comps get as any pupils with high grades as those few areas of England with grammar schools.

(My comment about hoping the same % get A and A* this year as 2019 - I also meant the lower grades too although they are not so material to this discussion about top universities. If the A levels this year cover the full 2019 syllabus in most cases then I am pleased)

That's not very representative. At my school, it's a clutch of 4s and 5s and open entry. That's pretty widespread.

when I have checked their university entrance today it is not as good as in the 1940s

That quite simply cannot be correct xenia!

That would probably be why you are the only person saying it. Those children who don’t even bother to apply won’t be in the statistics at all, obviously.

@Walkaround If you have to apply positive discrimination to a sector then you are effectively saying that you accept that the educational outcomes are by definition going to be lower and therefore you have to compensate . Whilst I am not saying that this is currently wrong it does let the government off the hook .

it is not illegal to send your child to an independent school and arguably the dc should not be held responsible for the decisions of their parents . The vast majority of independent schools bear no relationship to the likes of Eton and Rugby and certainly not to the selective London independents.