Leeds or elsewhere? Should DD go for Adjustment to study Economics

[PKPopsy]

My daughter applied to study Economics at Warwick and Leeds. Warwick rejected her and Leeds gave her an offer. She did the French bac and got her marks a couple of weeks ago and did really, really well - maths offer was 13 out of 20 and she got 18, overall average offer was 14 and she got 16.

My question is, should she go for adjustment in August? She loved Leeds when we visited, and I know it is very good for economics, but part of me thinks I am being naive and she should go for the best possible place for her future. She's a hard worker, but really wants to have a good time as well, and thinks Leeds will be good for both academics and fun.

Any people out there have some pearls of wisdom?

Have you looked at what is already in clearing to adjust up to?

I didn't realise adjustment and clearing follow the same lists. I did look and there were practically no options for economics on its own, just Nottingham or Manchester that might be worth changing too.

Clearing is for those with no offers or who have not made their offers.

Adjustment is for those with a place but who have done better than expected.

But universities can only offer places in clearing or adjustment if they have spare places so the lists are generally the same.

But won't some students not make the grades needed for the economic offers they are holding and therefore more places will become available after results day?

Yes that may happen. And those places will go into clearing. But most universities over offer so it doesn’t always happen.

OP, some questions:

Was Warwick or Leeds her first choice?
What is her definition of fun?!
Does she have aspirations of working for a large firm where the grad scheme would (almost certainly) require 2:1/1st?

Top economics courses like Warwick are very oversubscribed. From the memory of an open day about 5 years ago, they said they had about 2,200 qualified (ie with the right predictions) applicants for about 350 places.

LSE never goes into clearing. It is very unlikely that either UCL or Warwick ever do for economics.

1. What sort of economics is she interested in?
2. What is she likely to want to do with it?

This might help her decide which course suits her best.

In general those who really want to use economics per se, rather than move into finance, management or accountancy, are probably best taking one of the more mathematical courses. It might be worth contacting Bristol to ask if there is any way she could be considered this year. Ditto if management is her aim, Bath is vocationally orientated.

Once she has identified courses that fit best with her interests, she has a decision. Take a gap year and reapply to more competitive courses, in the knowledge that achieved grades count for more, but that the strong courses still reject many, or get on the best course she can, do very well and aim to take a year long Masters at somewhere like the LSE or Cambridge if she feels she would benefit from having a more recognised name on her CV. FWIW we have certainly spotted Cheif Economists of big name international banks with degrees from places like Birmingham and Nottingham. Indeed one of the world's top economists, whose name I forget (and too lazy to Google), graduated from York, Masters from LSE and then onto the US.

And well done your DD!

I think it would be sensible to look at (all) options for adjustment, certainly.

Based purely on data:
Warwick needs higher grades to get into (students have A* in Maths A-level, at Leeds it's A).
Leeds gives 98% 2:1/1st (more or less equally split), Warwick gives 77% (30% 1st).
Warwick is 3rd on CUG Economics rankings, Leeds 11th (they are roughly the same on general rankings).
Average salary afterwards is a lot more at Warwick.
Caveat all above with poss small sample sizes.

From the little I know about IB then 18/20 is probably an A* ?

At Leeds, I'd guess your DD would be towards the top end, and at Warwick possibly less so - hence my point about the average probability of getting a 2:1/1st.
This has been discussed elsewhere, and there are stories of students with 2:2s and 3rds from top unis taking a long time to get jobs.

There could also be other options in the Economics top 10.

Are you asking specifically about adjusting up to Warwick? If so forget it, Warwick won't have any vacancies for Economics. Others might (not LSE), but you'd have to wait and see. Leeds is a good choice though.

Can she take a year out and apply in the normal way if the course/uni she wants isn't in adjustment?

stubiff OPs daughter is taking French Bac not IB.

I am not sure what overall statistics will tell you. If she is aiming for a technical economics job, like research in a bank or consultancy, she would be far better of on a more mathematical course like Warwick. If she wants to do something more general, it probably matters less, and the degree classification may matter more.

Like with engineers, economist employers know the skills they need and know that Warwick is one of the courses that delivers them. However most economists don't remain as economists and it is also possible to pick up those skills by taking a Masters.

Warwick say they don't list the courses that are in Adjustment, and to contact them directly
warwick.ac.uk/study/results/clearing/guidance/howitworks/

But from looking round at open days, word of mouth and a DC that is at Leeds, the universities are quite different. So if your daughters choice is Leeds, then she should go there.

Agree that leaving aside the actual courses, Leeds & Warwick are so different. City v Campus.

@hellsbells99, although Adjustment courses aren't specifically listed I assume Clearing courses are those where 'places are/could be available', i.e. it is 'just' a list (and given the name Clearing, as that's what it originally was) and so could form the basis of an early list for Adjustment (for people who already have results).

E.g. Manchester currently want AAB or equivalent.

I would look at the clearing list to see if any are possibles.
Obviously, they'd still need to be on Clearing when Adjustment opens (15 Aug), or contact places of interest directly if not on Clearing.

Last year Warwick took 11 students through adjustment for Economics, but this was due to some exceptional circumstances. Usually we don't have any places.

It is worth contacting the department to ask, but it is unlikely, and you should be aware that if there are any places, they will go very quickly and we are unlikely to offer them to people who don't have 3A*s or equivalent.

Leeds Economics is a very good and interesting course. They have very much been at the forefront of applied economics and the moves to make economics more practical.

If your daughter is very strong at maths would she look at MORSE at Warwick?

Thank you so much for all these very informative replies. So much food for thought!

@stubitt Warwick would have been her 1st choice but they didn't give her an offer. She was coming from a very unusual background and her school was of no use whatsoever, as we live overseas and there were few international students. Very interesting that Leeds give so many 2:1s and 1st, that is certainly a consideration. And although she loves maths, she doesn't feel she was one of those who could do it blindfold like some of her friends (one taking a place at Imperial as we speak...)

Very useful link @hellsbells99, I got a bit lost with adjustment and couldn't quite figure out how it all worked.

Thanks @Phphion for your expert input. She has the equivalent in UCAS points of 168 which I believe is 3 A*. I will encourage her to approach the university directly if she feels it is the right way to go.

@Needmoresleep thanks for that info. She got an offer from Bristol but preferred Leeds, course and town wise. I didn't really grasp the big difference between the courses, although she did tell me the same thing.

@jayritchie I'll take a look at MORSE.

MORSE at Warwick is a very popular course. It's unlikely to have any places available for adjustment. It is also very, very mathematical and fairly brutal with those who aren't meeting the required standard in the maths part.

I know someone who has just graduated in economics and finance from Leeds, loved her time there, and is walking straight into a big 4 firm job.

Leeds is great. To an employer there'd be little difference between the 2 - we're interested in fit as well as degree. I personally don't care where they got their degree.

There is a big difference in potential earnings between the two 5 years down the line according to the Institute of Fiscal Studies who did an in depth report on grad salaries, subjects and university attended in 2018. After 5 years earnings for Economics (women) were:
Leeds £48,200, Manchester £41,500, Bristol £65,500 and Warwick £55,400 (but £70,700 for men!!!)

So the higher paying employers seem to recruit from a relatively small number of universities (there were a few others in the £69-75k bracket too) and it may also reflect which universes have more students who go to work in London. Possibly Manchester students don’t in great numbers. So employability and salaries are great, but some are greater than others!

In fact not just work in London - work internationally. That should read £65-75k above.

@BubblesBuddy that is very interesting, especially that Bristol students make the most of all of them despite the course not being as well recognised as Warwick's or Manchester's. Perhaps that reflects their wealth, that they can afford to move immediately to central London and interview until they get the best possible job (or just ask Daddy to sort it out).

Oh come on! I think that’s mean about Bristol students! Why just pick on Bristol? For Cambridge men the figure is over £82,000 for men and £65,500 for women. It just might reflect the type of ambitious student these universities get and that recruiters prefer or promote men more readily than women. Do you think LSE, UCL, Cambridge and Oxford students all have Daddies that sort it out too? Of course not. There is more to it than that. The more surprising figure is why men from Warwick and Cambridge do better than women by a large margin. In fact there is no salary figure for women attending LSE at all. Presumably a small cohort. Perhaps the men have the Daddies who sort it out but the girls don’t? The differences between men and women was very marked at a number of high ranking universities and this is of more concern than presumed prior wealth. It could also reflect that some universities attract more students from abroad. Oxbridge and London universities have higher numbers of international students. This phenomenon isn’t explained by parents alone. What it does say is Leeds is mid div.